I’ve Been Celibate For 26 Years. I’ve Never Been Happier. | Just Getting Good

I didn't take selfies

or pictures of myself for almost all of my 50s

because I hated how I looked.

And then I was just like, what am I doing?

This could make me cry.

>> We love crying on here.

We were crying the past few days.

We've been crying in here.

>> I've been crying a lot lately.

Um I just want people to let us age.

I really do.

It's so frustrating to read things about how ugly women are

and how useless we are

when I know for a fact

that I am better than I've ever been

and I have more to say than I've ever had to say.

>> Hello everyone and welcome to an all new episode of Just Getting Good,

one that I have been truly

so excited about since the moment I conceived of this show,

we conceived of this show.

I think I actually reached out to today's guest for season 1

and the stars were not aligned at

that time and part

because she is based on the West Coast,

but we were able to get her out here to film with us this

season,

which is beyond thrilling to me

because if you like myself are interested in just seeing women through all stages

of life live unapologetically

and transparently and also very aesthetically pleasingly on social media,

you almost certainly have already run into our guest today.

Her name is Heidi.

You may also know her by her handles.

Welcome to Heidi.

She is an author, a speaker, a podcaster,

content creator and someone who I think on a basically daily basis just shows

up in her underwear on TikTok

and Instagram and says a little something about her life

while getting dressed in what you will soon see are uh incredibly fabulous clothes.

Uh but she is someone who to me has really redefined a lot of

what women are doing on social media,

especially past the age of 50,

which is of course the women we're speaking to here on Just Getting Good.

Uh to have her in the studio is nothing short of an honor.

I am probably one of her absolute biggest fans

and have been pretty close to since since Well,

I don't know.

When did Tik Tok start?

2019?

Anyway, I've been here for a while.

And in this series, we talk a lot about the positives of aging,

more confidence and a stronger sense of self.

And one of the best things you can do to ensure

that that future version of you is the fearless woman I'm sure you're imagining

is to start taking care of your finances now.

Because the more time you give your money to grow,

the better off your future self will be.

And building wealth can be accessible.

Thanks to our sponsor today, Betterment.

Investing for long-term growth should not take over your life.

That's why Betterment's tools, like automated dividend reinvestment, work for you behind the scenes.

Invest for the long-term with Betterment's automated tools designed to help you keep more

of your potential after-tax returns.

Building long-term wealth does not have to make you feel uneasy.

Thanks to their globally diversified portfolios

that can help manage risk

and keep you diversified,

Betterment can help you feel confident about where you're investing.

Let automated investing do the work for you.

Visit betterment.com/tfd or click the link in our description to sign up in minutes.

So, with all of that said, I am so thrilled to welcome today's guest,

one of my favorite women on the internet, Miss Heidi Clements.

>> Thank you so much.

That's the best intro I've ever had.

Number one.

Number two, I can't believe I didn't make it in for season one cuz

>> I know.

>> I I I must have missed that.

I must have that one up.

>> Uh, I think it was an issue of DMs getting lost.

>> Probably.

Probably.

But thank you so much.

That's so lovely.

I really appreciate hearing all of that.

I love I love people who've been there since the beginning

because I when I go back

and look at how many things I've posted,

there's just so many thousands of stories

and I know most people just see one

and move on.

You know, one follow, move on.

But I love that you have been there, so thank you.

>> Yes, well, I've been there since I joined You were one of the

first people I followed

when I joined TikTok,

so back in 2022,

and I feel like

as a result of following you for now 4 years plus,

I have a very strong parasocial relationship in

that I feel like I know everything about you.

Um, but for our audience who maybe doesn't know you,

could you start by introducing yourself, your name, your age,

and the question we ask all of our guests,

which is at what age do you feel like life really started getting good?

>> Oof.

Okay, my name is Heidi Clements.

I am 65, but I I just said to you careening into 66,

which means I'm careening into 70, which is daunting.

Um, when did life start getting good?

Did it?

Is it?

Am I in it now?

Is it tomorrow?

Was it yesterday?

I don't know.

I can only tell you it's always been good,

but it got to where I think it's supposed to be mentally, internally,

how I feel about life, beautiful at 60.

>> Hell yeah.

Now, is that That's around the time

that your life online started taking off a bit more?

>> Absolutely.

I was I started in 2022 on TikTok.

I had been on Instagram, but not really posting anything.

I started in 2022 in what you see me now,

but if you go back and look at my early beginnings on TikTok,

it's pretty funny cuz it's just me standing in an outfit, like,

do do do do do, hi, not saying anything,

not offering anything other than a weird outfit.

And then, as it grew,

you can see my actual evolution of storytelling in real time on TikTok.

And then, once it kicked in, I thought, oh,

I should just share this on Instagram, also.

And now, Instagram has fully surpassed TikTok

as far as numbers

and um a community.

>> Yeah.

Um it's a it's a bigger audience.

>> So, one thing about uh your content, as I mentioned,

is that you not always,

but often will start in your underwear

and as you tell like a little anecdote

or a personal story,

you will get dressed.

Um what made you start doing that?

>> Why the would you show up in your underwear at 62 years old?

Well, I ask myself that every day. >> myself that about at 19 years old.

You know what I mean?

Like what what motivated you to start showing up in in your underwear?

>> was out of the boredom of looking at my own editing

and thinking I need more time.

I'll just start I start so when I tape,

I turn my camera on and I get dressed in front of it.

So, I'm in my underwear

and my bra and

and I just let it roll

and then I feed

that into my CapCut

and I cut it.

So, I used to just cut out the parts where my I was in

my bra and underwear

and I needed more storytelling time.

So, I was like, it.

I'll just be in my bra.

Who cares?

And surprisingly, nobody cares.

>> Yeah.

>> I don't get hate for how I look.

I think it's because people know I will fly to their house

and beat the out of them.

Like the other the the nice side of me shows up for the story

and then I will kill you.

Um but I never really thought about it in terms of like what am

I doing showing up on this very popular app in my underwear

and in general,

I don't connect what I do to what is actually people watching it.

I am posting like nobody's watching.

Always have, always will.

I write like nobody's listening.

I post like nobody's watching because if I make the connection like,

"Oh my god, someone saw like when I meet people and they say, 'Oh,

I saw your post about blah blah blah.'"

I think, "Oh, they saw me in my underwear.

So, I try not to make that case.

>> You know what's funny?

I'm not going to say that they're biting off of you,

but I follow a lot of women over 50,

and I've noticed more and more showing up in their underwear.

>> I know.

>> Which, you know, I said this to my husband recently.

I said, I'm at 50, we're getting naked on the internet because I Well,

it's true.

Like, I'm like, I don't love and light to 25-year-olds.

I'm good on seeing them in their underwear.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, I we've got enough of that at home.

>> I agree.

>> I want to see more women over 50 in some state of undress.

>> I agree.

>> Did you watch Okay, this is like um a a recent example from media,

but did you see a good luck to you, Leo Grande?

>> No.

>> Well, one reason I love that movie is because Emma Thompson,

in her full Emma Thompson glory,

is completely naked in the movie and having sex full-on in the movie.

And I thought I remember thinking, because listen,

you get a lot of the over 50 that's like,

we're almost uncanny valley and could pass for 35.

>> Yeah.

>> Whereas, she was the first woman I think in a long time I'd

seen on camera that I was like,

this is a visibly 60-something woman just being in her body.

So, I applaud.

>> I think it's changed for me now because I'm extremely body dysmorphic,

which is hard to be when you're skinny because people think like, well,

you're skinny, how could you be body dysmorphic?

But, when I look at myself,

I see I'm overweight

and I need to lose weight

and I look like I don't know

when that's going to leave my body.

It's the last thing that I've had to challenge.

But, when I'm on camera in my underwear

and I see things I don't like,

I post that because I think it's helpful for me and for other people.

So, it has shifted from a way to tell stories into a way to

show up.

And I don't have to edit out Like,

it's hard to say these things because I know I'm a thin person,

but I don't have to edit out a stomach roll or cellulite.

Like, I went on the other day in just my underwear

and bra and pointed out all the things

that I didn't like about me.

Um and I find that super helpful for other people, you know?

It's just like cuz we all Show me a woman who likes her body.

I mean, Jesus Christ, the damage we've done to women and their bodies.

We're just constantly picked apart.

I just saw I'm

so aggravated by this post

that I saw about Olivia Wilde

and how she's obviously on Ozempic

because look at how skinny she is now.

And I thought, maybe something's wrong with her.

Maybe she is so stressed out

and you people are just freely on the internet talking about how hideous she

looks and she's starving

and the Ozempic era.

Like, let's leave everyone alone.

I mean, I know I get on people about plastic surgery,

but let's leave everyone alone, you know?

>> Well, so but people You get on people about plastic surgery.

What does that mean?

>> So, my thing about I just really, you know,

it's why my hat says let women age

because I just don't think people let us age.

And it's not a request.

It's not a It's not an ask.

It's a statement.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh let me age however I want to however the I want.

Yeah.

And I feel like the messaging since we are little is old is bad,

wrinkles are ugly, you should not be allowed to walk the earth once you're

over 50,

you are a waste of time.

And that message is held up with plastic surgery.

So, when women say things like, oh, I just want to look fresher.

You want to look younger.

>> Yeah.

>> You're not going to.

>> Mhm.

>> Everybody knows you're 50

or No one thinks you're 20 after you get a facelift.

You look a little crazy in person.

And if you really thought about why you were getting that facelift,

it's because people told you you look like

when you get older since you were in the womb.

That messaging has been with you your whole life.

That aging is bad, that wrinkles are ugly.

Of course you want to cut up your face and look different.

So, if you could figure out how to separate the messaging from how you

really feel.

I mean, I hated my neck for a solid 10 years.

I didn't take selfies

or pictures of myself for almost all of my 50s

because I hated how I looked.

And then I was just like, "What am I doing?"

This could make me cry.

>> And we love crying on here.

We were crying the past two days.

We've been crying in here.

>> I've been crying a lot lately.

Um I just want people to let us age.

I really do.

It's so frustrating to read things about how ugly women are

and how useless we are

when I know for a fact

that I am better than I've ever been

and I have more to say than I've ever had to say.

And it pisses me off.

>> >> I agree.

I agree.

Um >> So, that's why I get mad about plastic surgery cuz I'm like,

"We're never going to get anywhere

if all we care about is what we look like

and how many wrinkles we have

and if our lip lines are full

and if our neck is okay

and if that's all we care about,

why would anybody elect us to the presidency?

Why would they?

I wouldn't.

>> Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's I hear you.

Um >> I just think we're never going to win

if we don't stop worrying about what we look like

and if we don't stop listening to what we look like.

Like, you can play with makeup

and do you can do whatever you want to to me it's like a

canvas and you're just dressing it up

and it's your art

and you do but not to look younger,

not to be something you aren't,

not to fit in with like something you've already you've already done it.

You lived it.

What if you're missing something amazing about 50s

because you're so worried

that you're not 20 anymore.

You did it.

Move on.

Someone else is in that spot.

Claim this spot.

>> As someone who um

so much of what you your brand online

and even showing up in person is just incredible personal style.

That's obviously such a big part of how you express yourself is personal style.

We talk a lot about dressing for men, dressing for ourselves, dressing for women,

you know, makeup, hair, clothes, how tight things fit, how good that wearing heel,

all of that.

What do you think about when you get dressed every morning?

>> My only goal is to wear something that I feel confident in.

And it's really funny.

I was talking to Stacy London about this because every time I get dressed,

she's like, "You should wear this.

You should wear that."

I'm like, "I'm 65.

I already know how I want to dress.

I know it's your area, but you can tell me all you want,

but it you know, I never put an outfit on and then think, 'Ooh,

I don't like this.

I don't like that.

Let me change this.'"

I literally go in my closet and pull things out and put them on.

For me, I wake up and I feel a certain mood.

Like, I want to dress sporty

or girly or rockery

or like I don't have one mode.

And it's all about what do I feel confident in.

I feel good in this outfit.

There are things I never want to wear because I'm uncomfortable.

I hate tight clothes.

I don't normally like I never used to show my boobs,

but then I cut them off, so now I don't care anymore.

>> Nice.

>> Um that's my very uncool way of saying I had a breast reduction.

>> Three times.

>> Many such cases.

A lot of my friends getting them.

>> It's the best.

>> Like you can run.

>> But I don't I never think about what anyone else thinks

when I'm getting dressed.

I don't care what you think.

I never care about the male gaze.

I decentered men from my life at 40.

Uh it was the best thing I ever did.

And I never and I don't care what other women think.

Like it's great if they like how I look,

but if I don't like how I look,

there is no purpose to what I'm wearing

because it pushes me into my day.

This outfit is how I will be today.

This outfit will be my mood.

I feel cool and confident.

>> Uh now as someone who doesn't suffer from body dysmorphia, in fact, >> Thank you.

>> I often suffer from the opposite,

which is delusion about like I actually look great even

when I look like >>

but >> you do.

>> Yeah, well, thanks.

But um I bet people watching who do suffer with body dysmorphia are probably

thinking,

"Wow, I would love to be able to get dressed

and truly not care about what anyone thinks,

but that feels impossible to me."

Is that something you had to like work toward as a practice?

>> Absolutely.

Everything came with age.

All all aspects of not caring what other people think about me came with

age.

I mean, I don't think I could live on the internet

and social media if I cared what people thought about me.

It's too hard.

Um yeah, it comes with age,

and I know people ask me all the time about, you know,

style and where do you find your style and for me,

I you just look at other people

and find things you like

and then sort of tweak it to to to be you,

but you must feel confident in it or don't leave the house.

Uh I don't follow trends.

I don't watch runway shows.

I don't I'm pretty much a full-time thrifter

when it comes to uh my clothing.

Everything I'm wearing right now was thrifted.

Um >> And >> So, I don't care.

I think style is not what you're wearing, it's how you wear it.

So, I don't care about trends.

And I I And I think that's true for, you know,

like if you're somebody who likes Oh my god,

I feel magical in a in a rainbow onesie.

Wear it.

Because that confidence will enter the room with you.

And that's all you need in life is just be confident about who you

are.

>> Now, one thing you talk quite a bit about on your channel is sobriety.

>> Mhm, yes.

>> Um that has been a major part of sort of your life journey.

At what age did you get sober?

>> 40.

>> Okay, so this has been in for a while now. >> 26 years this June.

>> Okay, so you got sober and decentered men in the same year.

>> I got sober

and immediately realized that every person I had dated was a horrible pick,

that I did not know what I was doing,

and that I needed to take a break.

And that break lasted 25 years.

>> Okay, let's >> that means I don't date.

I don't have sex.

People find that shocking.

I find it delightful.

>> Okay, all right, back up, back up.

Okay, a couple things.

>> So many statements in there.

>> Now, Okay, so you've spoken on your channel about uh some you've dated.

>> Oh my god.

>> Some really bad ones.

>> Yeah.

>> Um was it was it really

that realization of like I'm drunk all the >> >> Yeah.

>> I'm picking these pieces of I got to get sober.

And so that was like kind of the connection >> I got sober.

I got sober cuz I was going to die if I didn't.

>> Right.

>> Um but once I got sober, I was like So, once I got sober,

I met six They say don't have sex with anyone for a year.

I didn't listen.

And I had sex with someone six months after I got sober who lied

to me,

who gaslit me, who love bombed me, and I believed all of it.

And when it ended five minutes after it started

because he just wanted to have sex.

I was I'm done.

I'm I need a break.

So it was sort of in the same time period,

but it was a man who forced me to make

that decision that I was not good with picking

and I needed to take a break.

I just needed to like get get rid of men for a minute.

Um >> I'm going to put a pin in that for 1 second.

So when you got sober, did you go the AA route?

>> not.

I went to one AA meeting.

I was immediately hit on by a guy who reeked of booze

and I thought,

well, this is literally the opposite of what I need.

>> You know, I have a few female friends who've gotten sober in the

past 5 years.

Every single one of them has said had said roughly the same thing about

AA,

that there's just so many men in there who are A hitting on women

and B also sort of treating all of their other problems

as sort of swept away

because they're they're getting sober. >> sober.

I mean, I really I love the fact that AA works for people.

Whatever works for you, do it.

But I walked in and I heard uh you know,

first I got hit on and then I all I heard was, you know,

let God give God your problems.

And I thought if God has time for my shart and a problem,

we're >> >> cuz >> I mean, it's true.

>> Let's >> Let's hope he has bigger fish >> He's busier.

He's busy, she's busy, it's busy, the universe is busy.

Whatever they it are.

Um and so I didn't like the religious aspect of it.

And so I just thought I can do this on my own.

I am You know, I'm hyper-independent.

I was abused as a child once only,

but I had very unnurtured unnurtured childhood.

So, I am hyper-independent.

I'm like, "Fuck it, I'll do it on my own."

That's my motto in life.

"Fuck it, I'll do it on my own."

I'm exhausted, by the way, from that mantra.

Um but, I'm still doing it on my own.

And so, like I love people who have all these teams for their Instagram,

and I I've got no one.

It's me in my bathroom.

That's it.

Anyway, uh so, I did not like the AA route.

And so, I white-knuckled it, and thank God it worked.

>> No therapy?

>> No.

>> Therapy since?

>> Once.

I've done ayahuasca twice,

which I believe is 20 years of therapy in one session.

Uh and I I feel like part of what I do every day is

therapizing me.

>> Yes.

>> And unintentionally therapizing other people,

but I feel like I've learned a lot from being on social media,

quite frankly.

>> Yeah, I agree.

It's I think although there's negatives,

like right now I'm taking a break from TikTok

so I can heal my brain

and read again.

>> Yeah.

>> Um but, I do think it's been a net positive in my life.

>> Yeah.

I I mean, I get messages from people all the time

that are so beautiful.

It's the most rewarding thing I've ever done.

I mean, it's incredible.

So, I love that.

I love that I get to be the mom that I never was.

I'm going to make myself cry again.

>> Go for it.

As you should.

As you should.

>> >> I love that I get to mom people >> Yeah. >> uh on the internet,

and that most of my audience,

I would say 90% of my audience is under 40, uh which is rare.

I'm starting to get the olds are coming in, my people, my age group.

But, uh but I feel like, wow,

all the dumb I did is actually helping another generation,

and that's kind of cool.

>> I'm one of those people.

>> Thank you.

>> I'm I've been locked in from the beginning.

>> I really appreciate it.

>> No, I love it.

Okay, so taking the pin out of what we were talking about earlier,

which was this sort of simultaneous occurrence of becoming sober because you know,

you need you needed to to to live

and then sort of with

that realizing that you were just not interested in dating

or sex or romance ever again

and prior to that

so you talk a lot on your channel about never marrying,

no kids, all of that, but it was not until 40 an active choice.

Is that right?

>> Until I got sober.

>> Okay, so from that time for the past 25 years,

it has been a very active choice

that this is not something I welcome into my life.

>> Correct.

>> Okay, now was

that an automatic after you dated

that guy or is

that something you came to?

Okay. >> automatic.

>> Damn, this guy was bad.

>> Bad.

>> Yeah, he was like yeah.

>> It's also like when you're sober, you're newly sober,

I I I liken it to dancing on the head of the pin.

Like you are a raw open wound of all the things

that you have been hiding >> Yeah. >> for 40 years about who you

are and what matters.

Like you're just an open wound

and this guy just it in it >> >>

and I needed a minute to like >> Yeah. >> you know.

>> Yeah.

So since making the choice over the past 25 years to be intentionally celibate,

intentionally solo, what has that sort of made space for in your life?

>> Me.

>> Yes, tell me more.

>> Me.

I just never put myself first.

I was a people pleaser.

I thought, you know, I grew up on a baby boomer.

I grew up in the era that you get married, you have children,

you get a house,

you have a job and if you don't do those things,

you are a loser.

So, when I was 40 and single, I was an old maid.

When I started a job

and was single uh

when I started this one job

and someone came up to me

and said uh they were talking about kids

and I said,

"Oh, I I never had any got married."

And they said, "Well, you'll never know what real love is."

Like, I'm battling the patriarchy, misogyny,

and all of these things just to live my life

and taking that out of the equation just made me realize like,

"Oh, I've been lied to.

I can do whatever the I want.

I can live whatever life I want.

I can be uh selfish, which I think is a stupid word,

but you know, I always say my favorite Glennon Doyle quote is your job

in this life is to disappoint

as many people as possible to avoid disappointing yourself."

People think that's a terrible quote.

I think it means you can't give people in your life what you they

need if you're not happy.

If you're mad about being at the party, they don't need you there,

you know?

So, it just opened up a world where it's okay to just do things

for me,

to put me first, to like me,

to learn how to like me and love me.

Radical self-love is the only thing that's going to save you in this world

because it's the only thing

that sets you up to deal with all the others.

You have to be in a place where you're like,

"I feel really good about myself.

What that person says can't hurt me.

I don't care what that person says.

Now I can go out

and do good and help other people

and pick better partners

and pick better friends

that will feel good in my existence."

Like, we don't have to just take whatever's coming at us and whatever some,

you know, guy in a white wig

and slave teeth told us we needed on our list of life things to

have.

Like we weren't even in their paperwork in 1776.

>> Can I respectfully push back on one thing?

>> Please.

>> Um so I feel that >> I don't >> Yeah, it.

>> >> Um Okay, so I feel I'm very much vibing with everything you're saying.

However, I think that Except Well,

not except because I actually think you're going about what you're saying in an

ethical way.

So I don't know who Glennon Doyle is, but I >> What?

>> Who is Glennon Doyle?

Is she the one that WENT ON THE HIKE?

>> >> SHE was a very famous mommy blogger who was an alcoholic, got sober,

wrote a book called Untamed, fell in love with a woman,

and now Abby Wambach, who's a big former soccer US soccer player.

Anyway, she's not my favorite person, but the book really resonated with me.

>> Listen, I don't know this one,

but there are a lot of There is an industrial complex of what I'm

going to respectfully call white women blowing their lives up

and like going on a personal journey.

It's true.

There's one like every 5 years.

>> White women everything up.

Let's just start there, but >> Okay.

And I don't know her story.

I don't know the ethics of it.

I don't know what it was.

What I will say though is disappointing everyone else to not disappoint yourself.

I think that only works

if you have not made a commitment to a life partner.

I think that The problem is a lot of people who want to go

on these radical self journeys,

many of the men to be clear,

do not take into account

that once you have made a life commitment to a partner,

to children, that you do have to have sort of this extra layer of

you know,

kind of considering someone else to the extent that you consider yourself.

And I think the problem is not enough people who are saying like I

want to live radically for me

and my truth on my terms without compromise are also willing to go

that extra step and say

so therefore I should not have children.

I should not be in a, you know, romantic partnership,

life partnership. >> think that's me.

I I don't I mean I see what you're saying

and I know plenty people who are doing

that but my interpretation of

that line is just I can't give you the best of me

if I'm not giving me the best of me.

So if I had a life partner

and they wanted me to go to an event

that I was like it's going to kill me to go to

that.

I would go to that because I love that person.

>> Right.

>> And I want to do things for that person.

>> Right.

>> I think what it means to me is

that you make choi- better choices in your life about who is in your

orbit that you want to do things for

that don't make you

that happy.

Who is in your world that respects your boundaries.

I think for me it's bigger than that.

I'm not like you, it's my way or the highway.

>> I get that there's a lot of people out there like

that and I understand

that that's a lot of how people interpret the quote

but it's not I'm I mean I am my friends will tell you my

best quality is like

that I'm the most generous person

and I will do anything for anybody

that I know.

I will I'm will pick you up at the airport.

I'm that person.

Like so that's my place with it but I understand the pushback.

I understand that there are many interpretations of that line.

It's just that's how I interpret it for me is

that I can't give you the best of me until give it to me

first.

It's like I need to put my oxygen mask on first before I put

the child's on.

>> I think it also depends on where you're coming from, right?

Because to your own description you were a massive people pleaser prior to that.

>> Massive.

>> Constantly put yourself last.

>> Massive.

>> Um >> Yeah,

and also like I also want to make it clear

if a really great guy fell out of the ceiling into my bed,

I will him.

>> >> Just so you know.

It's not like hands off for life.

Like no forever.

I don't want to be the Pied Piper of no penis,

but that's just where it is right now.

>> Listen, as you should.

As should we all.

Okay, so you had mentioned prior to us going cameras up.

Down the rabbit hole?

That you are not

as as as sort of aligned with yourself

as you are in many many ways.

You are not that with money.

Horrible with money.

Help me.

Save me, please.

I am a shopaholic.

I'm a holic.

The ad that's at the end of anything that I do.

I do everything like when I smoke weed,

I don't just smoke at night before bed, which would be amazing.

I have to get up and smoke throughout the entire day.

Like if I eat, I'm going to binge eat.

If I like it's just I'm just over on all of the overs.

And I My parents were terrible with money and I think I watched that.

>> Terrible in what way?

>> They didn't have any

when they were older

and that is my biggest fear

and they had no savings

and we had to pay for them for years

and um They spent above their means

and that's kind of what I've done my whole life is like I'm going

to charge a $25,000 50th birthday trip to American Express

and I did and it took me 10 years to pay off.

So it probably cost me $60,000.

>> Jesus Christ.

Where did you go?

>> Rome and London with 10 friends.

>> And you paid for everything?

>> I paid for every dinner and I paid for like two other people's rooms.

>> How old were you?

>> 50.

For my 50th.

>> Okay, 50.

Yeah, I mean not wise.

>> No.

>> To pay 60 grand for that.

>> No, and I have to say this year I'm really proud of myself.

I I paid my taxes immediately.

I actually saved them cuz you know when you work in Instagram,

you get untaxed money, which is like "No, take taxes, please.

I'm not good."

Um but I paid my taxes

and now I'm building my ever tiny bit of debt for me.

I have like maybe 7K, which for me is >> On a credit card?

>> Nothing.

Yeah.

>> Okay.

Can I ask you a few questions about money?

>> Please.

>> Okay.

Um do you have an accountant?

>> No.

Yes.

Yes.

I do.

>> That was such a hard show. >> a tax person.

>> Do you have a CPA?

>> Yeah, I don't have like a a constant accountant.

I had a business manager,

but they fired me

because I wasn't listening to them

and spent all my money.

>> Okay.

Well, that's not good.

>> And I didn't make enough for them.

They wanted more money.

>> Okay.

Do you own your home?

>> I do not.

>> Okay, so you rent?

>> my house.

>> You sold your house, you rent.

Do you feel like you pay too much in rent?

>> Absolutely.

>> And that's but that's not going to change.

>> Probably not.

I live in Montecito, there's not a lot of choices.

>> Do you at all save for when you are no longer working?

>> Trying to.

>> Okay.

Because >> started So, I've had periods in my life where I made tons

of money.

>> Doing what?

>> Uh I was uh scripted writer,

comedy writer uh for 100 episodes of a show called Baby Daddy,

where I made a ton of money,

but decided to live in an $11,000 a month house.

So, I didn't save any of that.

Um and then I had no money for years

and my friends actually had to pay my rent for a year

and a half,

which was beautiful of them.

>> Good friends.

>> Uh and that was pandemic.

And then after the pandemic, I got a job that paid so little,

I was miserable and I quit with no money in the bank.

And so, I went and lived with those friends for 5 months, saved up,

and then turned Instagram into a business, and since then have been fine.

Uh and solid and uh living,

but it's the thing that lives in my head the most.

Like, you're you've got to have a bigger savings account

because you need to retire,

you need to stop working,

you need to be able to pay for your health care, your rent,

and all of these things.

So, it's definitely a looming problem more now.

>> What are you Do you mind sharing roughly what you make from Instagram?

>> Um >> Or social media generally.

>> Yeah, I mean, I made six figures this year.

>> Nice.

>> Low.

>> Okay.

Well, I don't know.

Six figures is famously a $900,000 range, so.

>> Go to $100,000 range, you know, just above that, working very little.

>> Yeah.

>> Uh and really enjoying my life.

And then, uh yeah, so, uh but at the height of my career,

I mean, when I was at Baby Daddy,

I was making half a million dollars a year.

When I was at Entertainment Tonight, I made half a million dollars a year,

but I was living above my means.

>> Right.

>> I think that's the problem is that I'm always living above Like,

I want stuff.

I want a pretty life.

I want things to be cute before I go to bed at night.

I'm not going to live I'm 65.

I'm not going to live box.

I I'm just not.

>> Nor should you.

Um >> need to get better about saving.

Give me some hot tips of how I should What I should be doing.

>> If you have really good friends,

you should put them between you and your money, genuinely,

because I used to be a spender. >> and and >> And I still am.

But, uh so, okay.

So, I used to have a shopping I wouldn't say a shopping addiction,

but I would say I was a compulsive spender and a deeply emotional spender.

I got into credit card debt.

I completely nuked my credit.

I was in collections.

I got arrested for because I didn't pay any of my moving violations,

so I had a suspended license.

>> I was a mess, mess, mess, mess.

But, that's why I started a financial channel.

But, um when I was very first rehabbing my relationship with money,

so I got my first book deal in 2012.

It was $22,000, which was nothing for a book deal comparatively,

cuz it's paid out of, you know,

it's like paid out over years and everything.

But, it was enough to pay off my credit card debt.

So, I was like, you know what?

I'm going to get out of debt.

And that was settling it, by the way.

Like, I had a bunch of debt all over I mean,

I still sometimes will get a My husband, you know,

20 years almost later will be like,

"There's a piece of mail from the state of Maryland

that says you owe some money."

And I was like, "Well, they're certainly right."

Because I'll probably be paying out money I owed to the state of Maryland

and and Washington D.C. until I die.

But, um I got like kind of like to level to zero basically,

which was already an enormous improvement.

Like I was at a place where like I couldn't use my phone

because it was nothing

but collections agencies.

Um I was like doing cash check cashing services, all of that.

Um but, when I was first getting good with money,

one of the things I did,

so I did a um like a a prepaid credit card

so that I could build my credit back up,

but I had for the first time ever a salaried job.

This was in like 2014 2013, which 2013 2014, which was nothing,

but it was enough that I could start doing a little bit of saving,

a little bit of you know, putting money here and there.

I also was still working freelance,

so what I did was I literally gave to at the time my husband

now husband,

um but then a trusted person I don't want access to like I I

can get into my accounts,

but I you have to like essentially be my um parole officer.

Like you keep my cards.

I don't have any of them saved in my browser,

so I can't online shop.

I don't have them in my wallet when I go around.

Like I only keep an extremely small amount of money in my checking account

for emergencies.

Savings, like you hold that.

Like I basically treated myself like a child

and had another person be the inter man intermediary to prevent me from my

worst impulses.

And honestly, like if you have a friend who would be willing to do

it for someone who is trying to just get out of

that cycle of compulsive spending,

it's for me anyway, it was a game changer.

>> It's so much easier

when you're younger to have people tell you things of how to lead your

life.

It's really hard when >> listen?

>> No, I would be mad at them and hate them.

I will say this.

I'm much better than I was.

>> That's good.

>> I have learned to love seeing money in my savings account.

Like I love it and I'm upset when there's not more in there.

And I just need I need to make more money now

that I'm you know,

I've paid off 80 grand in debt.

I've paid off more than that.

Like the birthday trip.

I think when I sold my house I think I had almost $100,000 of

debt and paid it all off.

So the fact that I ended up back there again,

I just recently I ended up back there again

because of the losing my job.

Sorry the the pandemic and moving and all of that.

I racked up a whole bunch of debt again, paid it off.

Just paid it off.

And so I for me

because I live alone also

and don't necessarily have a lot of great friends there

and I'm a stubborn old I really am just trying to focus on not

doing what I just did yesterday.

>> Which was?

>> I went and spent, you know,

$1,000 on second-hand clothing so that I could feed the bathroom beast,

which is what I call my Instagram.

That's my sore spot right now.

I don't get a lot of clothes

and I feel like I'm trying to

and I almost feel like it's funny.

I was just thinking about it this morning like rather than spending

that $1,000 I should announce to my audience

that I'm not buying another piece of clothing for 6 months.

Let's see what I can do out of my closet. >> should.

She's famously doing that for the entire year. >> that would also be you know,

except if people send me clothes, which is very rare.

But I think that would be cuz people say to me all the time

like where are you getting all your clothes?

I'm like I don't really have that many.

It just looks like I do.

My closet's not that big.

Anyway, so that's my new plan.

Is to publicly, the same way

that I put out all of the things

that most people would just journal

and close the book on

and never share with another soul,

I want to do that with my finances now.

>> That is literally the the financial diet, which is a company now,

11 years later.

The very first thing was a a post on Tumblr that I posted saying,

"My name is Chelsea and I have a real problem with money."

And it was literally just to do that, to hold myself accountable.

Because I knew that

if everyone was watching me

that I would be more likely to to make do it.

>> I will say this,

with regards to because you have over a million followers each on Instagram

and TikTok,

nothing has shown the brutal ageism of those platforms more than the fact

that you're not constantly receiving clothing

because >> No,

it's really bad.

The ageism is so bad.

>> If I look at like, and also brand deals,

there's a girl who has slightly less than me who's at my agency,

who's probably in her 30s,

a skinny white girl uh who's loud and says a lot.

It's like, "Oh wow, it's me at at 30-something."

And she did 400,000 in brand deals last month.

>> Last month?

>> One month.

And so and and gets the most obscene amount of stuff from companies

that I tag every day.

And I never I've never had clothing from a major brand.

Rag and Bone just sent me my first ever package.

It was a pair of pajama jeans and a white t-shirt.

I was like, "Do you watch me?"

>> >> And this woman that you're describing has a similar amount of followers to you?

>> She's got it She just hit a million.

>> So less?

>> Yeah, less.

Had less for a while.

Girls that are like in 20,000 followers, 40,000 followers, but they're young,

are getting insane amounts of free Now, granted,

I don't want to promote that anyway.

>> Yes, yes.

>> So, shut up, Heidi.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, it's like I'm my biggest problem

because I can't accept half the brand deals

that do want to come to me

because I'm like,

"I'm not promoting your bull that says anti-aging.

That's a hate crime.

I'm not doing it."

So, it's like all the things

that would come to me don't come to me

because I'm a disaster of hating on them

and I'm going to keep it

that way.

So, I am brand deal to brand deal

if I get them

and it's why I started selling merch

and stuff.

So, I don't I don't want all that on my page.

I hate doing it,

but that's how I'm paying my rent

and that's how I'm able to come here

and tell you stories about my life.

I would love to change that.

It's why I'm desperate to get a publisher right now

so that I can write another book,

so that I can go on a book tour,

so that I could talk about the things that I care about.

I desperately care about the women who follow me.

I want them to be happy.

I want to create a world where they don't have to grow up the

way I grew up

and sometimes that means I have to promote a hair removal system

that I enjoy.

>> Oh, I would never ever get between you and your your bag.

I'm just still sitting here dumbfounded by the fact

that you have over a million followers each on Instagram

and TikTok and are getting

so relatively little for >> I don't think people know who the I am.

I was shocked that you asked me to come in here.

I was like, "How does she know who I am?"

My manager was like, "We love Cynthia.

She's Cynthia."

>> Cynthia.

>> It's my best friend who I traveled across is Cynthia Fagan.

>> Oh, okay.

>> And so, I just went there.

I'm so Anyway, he loves you.

She must be your She's not.

You're so different.

It's insane.

A mess like me.

Um but anyway, so I'm so sorry.

Uh Cynthia is not a good name for you.

Um and so, I was shocked like I think I have really low visibility.

But then like when I walk around the street,

I see people staring at me

and people come up to me

and they're like,

"Are you Do you make?"

But I think I'm

that person that people followed from one

or two or three TikToks

and never went back in again.

Like they see me, but they don't they're not locked into me.

>> Don't gaslight yourself into ageism.

Straightforwardly so.

>> And on a t-shirt.

>> Yes, it is.

That's grotesque to I've had it.

I've had it.

I'm going to >> I don't know.

I think I'm I'm I don't think anybody knows who the I am.

>> Okay, not to blow up your spot,

but you literally listed like seven different celebrities >> That follow me on Instagram.

>> No, but that you're now like friendly with. >> cuz I'm amazing.

>> That's true.

>> Aren't we friends now?

>> I I listen, I was waiting for you to say it.

>> >> I I know, but I I mean so forget that.

I just mean like the people

that are in charge of the things

that bring you the money don't know who the I am.

I've never been invited on a brand trip.

>> Oh, but >> I've don't want to go.

It's fine.

I hate everybody.

Don't want to go.

Don't want to be in the dumb videos.

Don't want to make the cute Don't want to do it,

but invite me and I'll say no.

>> You want to decline.

>> I want to decline.

Uh I never get invited to brand events ever.

Never.

I think I've been to three.

It's crazy to me,

but I also think that's my own universal secret wish

that I'm fulfilling by not getting invited

because I don't want to go.

>> I'm only ever getting We're We're constantly getting invited to like financial services events,

which like Listen, they are well-stocked.

I will say that.

These These companies clearly have money, but they are They're not sexy.

I'll say that.

They're not a sexy swanky event.

>> Yeah.

>> Like we we have one at like the stock exchange.

>> Oh.

>> It's kind of fun.

I guess, but >> I mean, listen,

I just uh it's not that I wanted but I am surprised by it.

You know?

>> No, I get it. >> in life is the thing that I say every day,

the one thing I want in life is financial freedom,

which is so funny

that you brought me here

because it is the thing

that I say over

and over again.

And so however I can achieve

that that's what I would like to do for a living

that I love.

Um I would love to write another book and take that on tour.

I would love to do voice overs.

>> You should.

>> Love.

I made a reel and I was turned down.

I uh so these are the things

that I would like to do to not do the shilling of the you

know,

the hair removal and whatnot.

>> You talked a lot recently about your father's passing,

which was very complicated for you for a lot of reasons,

and you have often talked about having complicated family relationships.

I, as someone who also has complicated family relationships,

um am always very moved by your videos on this subject

and find them to be um both relatable

and also aspirational in the sense

that I think that you have both an enormous amount of empathy

and compassion for yourself

as a child,

as a grown woman

but also an enormous amount of empathy

and compassion for uh the people in your life who maybe did not always

do right by you.

Please share your wisdom on this subject.

>> Okay.

So, I have often said I don't forgive people.

I think forgiveness is a gift

and I don't buy presents for people who hurt me.

That did not ring true for my parents.

You're just asking me this is going to make me cry.

>> It's my gift.

>> I believe and this is from studying Kabbalah, which is a Jewish mysticism.

I believe that my soul chose my parents

so that I could learn lessons in this lifetime

as this soul that I would not have to repeat.

So, I believe I chose the life

that I was born into

and the things that happened to me,

which sounds crazy.

Why would you choose to be Why would you choose to have a child

die if that's your situation,

you know?

But it's just what works for me.

And when it came to my parents,

I have much more forgiveness for them because I chose them.

So, why did I choose them?

You know, what was I getting from this?

And I think it was just all part of learning

that they were here for the first time,

too.

And I wish I could extend that compassion and empathy to other people.

>> >> But it's I don't think they deserve it

as much as my parents do

because they did give birth to me.

It's so funny, my throat closes up when I get to certain subjects.

I recently found out that my mom didn't want me.

There's a real up in the teen episode.

>> Oh my god, no, I love.

I mean, not I not this, but you know what I mean.

The candor.

>> So, you hear that in the womb.

A baby hears that in the womb.

And it was on repeat for the all of the months until I was

born and then even

when I was born.

So, I understood that it all made sense to me

when my dad told me

that at 65.

It all made sense finally.

Like, oh, that's why I always felt like a burden."

"Oh, that's you know, it just all made sense to me."

So, it's a lot clearer now, but my mom was 19 years old.

How can I not forgive her?

She loved me in the end, and that's all that mattered.

That's why I believe I chose it, and that's why I work with it.

>> You said that you feel like you have a level of empathy

that you can extend to them

and not necessarily to other people,

but that you wish you could.

>> Yeah.

>> Why do you wish you could also offer them empathy?

>> I wish I could see where other people are coming from

and not just go,

"No.

>> Yeah.

>> We don't think the same.

No."

I wish that I could see

that the person who's angry in their car

and screaming might have just gotten the worst news of their life.

Like, I wish I could remember those things.

I wish we all could.

It would be a better place to live, you know?

But, I don't.

I just choose to walk away and deal with somebody else, you know?

I just don't want to my boundaries no longer allow me to be with

people that I just think are awful.

I don't want to understand why they're awful.

Well, let somebody else figure it out.

It's not always going to be my job.

But, that's my advice to you about

if it's your parents is to just sort of,

you know, understand.

Like, you picked that.

Why?

>> Going to have to >> >> to check in at HQ with myself

and ask some serious questions.

Um I don't know.

It's interesting.

I think about it a lot because I am very online, like yourself.

And so, um very aware of the fact

that we're sort of in a bit of a renaissance of uh distancing ourselves

from relationships that do not serve us.

>> Yeah.

>> And I am >> >> uh I try I choose to be extremely

vague about how I talk about this on the

but suffice to say I am not someone who cuts out people.

It's not a choice I make.

I don't I don't judge anyone else for doing it.

I have had people on this channel over the years who have had to

cut parents out for

or or siblings or other family members for all kinds of reasons

and I think they're completely valid.

Um but for myself, the just for whatever reason,

the idea of putting up true in some ways permanent distance feels either not

right to me or just sort of inaccessible to me

and not really something I desire for a variety of reasons.

And again, we're not even getting into who this is,

but um I'm interested

as someone who does choose to move with such empathy toward extremely complicated parental

relationships,

how you feel about this sort of new way of thinking about essentially you

don't owe family access to you.

>> I agree with that.

And you absolutely don't.

And I will say my parents while my childhood sucked,

it was not it if people did horrible things to me, abused me,

like my if my parents abused me.

Um although my mother did hit us all the time,

which is insane now to think about.

>> It was the '60s. >> the '60s.

But uh I I think you you you get out of any I think

you cut and run in every relationship

that is not serving your heart

and your mental health.

And I think it's really important to have those boundaries.

I don't care if they're fam if they're blood or not.

Um my chosen family has always had much more respect for me than my

regular family did.

I mean, my parents,

my um my sisters

and I are now much closer than we ever were since my parents died,

which is interesting.

But um I I think I don't care that it's family.

If you want to cut them out, cut them out.

I'm a cut and runner.

I cut.

Because I mean what are you going to do?

Torture yourself just because they're your parents?

I mean, I didn't like I say yes, I made that choice.

But I could also say like, well, whatever.

I didn't get anything from them.

Bye.

Like I I just I don't know.

I I I think it's what I see people suffering

so deeply from from family problems

and having to cut people out.

And I say, if that's what helps you get your together, do it.

Maybe you'll find your way back to them.

Maybe you won't.

But just because again,

just because you made the choice to be born into this family,

if that's what we're going with,

if that's what I believe make the choice to walk away.

You can make another choice.

>> When you talk about um your chosen family, is this friends?

>> Mhm.

>> Friends from all throughout your life?

>> Um or recent or new.

You know, whoever is whoever sees me

and I see that they like me >> Yeah. >> we're good.

We're good.

>> Um now, you lived in New York and you moved away in '96.

>> Yes.

>> But you lived there for almost 20 years before.

>> Yes.

>> So, you were there in the like the the heady days. >> years.

>> You consider them the golden years?

>> Oh my god, the the the arrival of the club scene.

Come on.

>> Yeah.

>> It's amazing.

>> It must have been.

Can you just like regale us with like a little story of >> Yeah.

I mean, god.

I uh So, I lived on the Upper West Side probably for like >>

What were your cross streets?

>> I lived everywhere.

So, I started on 14th and 5th in 1982.

Then I moved to 76th and Amster No, Columbus.

Right across the street from the Museum of Natural History.

And then eventually I moved to 14th, no, 4th between A and B.

And then I ended on the Upper East Side in the late 90s.

Um, but I was on the Upper West Side for the at the invention

of the club scenes.

And so me and my girlfriends would all put on our best Betsey Johnson

and we would go to the China Club.

And we would pretend we were famous

and sneak in cuz it was very celeby,

the China Club.

We liked Area.

Area was like too weird for us.

We were kind of basic.

And the Limelight was kind of cool.

I did meet Marky Mark there.

>> Ooh.

>> I did.

Um, but the China Club was our thing.

And basically we went out I went out every single night

when I lived in Manhattan from from the day I moved here till the

day I left.

We went out every night.

Partying, drinking, gay clubs, regular clubs, you know.

I remember walking down the street one night with my with three of my

friends and I looked ahead of me

and I saw like this outfit on the ground

and I said that looks

so much like what Richie was wearing tonight.

And yes, it was my friend Richie just passed out on the sidewalk.

Like life times were crazy, but fun.

>> >> I was having a conversation the other day with a friend about

the dangers of nostalgia.

About sort of I really consider myself not a nostalgic person in any respect.

And not because I didn't enjoy things throughout my life,

but because I think

that there's a danger in romanticizing them too much

and thinking about them too much

and sort of I don't know,

living in the rearview mirror a bit.

>> Um, and obviously that doesn't like there there's nuance to that, right?

And like that the extreme of

that spectrum is someone who clearly lives in the past for a variety of

reasons.

But I do think even like for example,

there's an enormous amount of nostalgia based content on the internet.

Remember this, this show, this you know, the way life was, etc.

And it's funny like even the hitting your kids thing,

it's like people will love romanticizing how nice it was to grow up

as a kid without cell phones,

which it was, but also >> I got hit in the head with a slipper,

so I don't think it's all good. >> was like, you know.

>> >> But, um, I'm interested

because you talk a lot on your your um your channels about how wonderful

that time was,

how special it was,

how it could really never be reproduced because now we're all like, you know,

CIA surveilling each other 24/7 with our phones,

which is a big part of it.

How do you balance being nostalgic for other times in your life with still

focusing on yourself in the present

and who you're going to be?

>> I think I only look back to correct going forward.

Like, I'm not a nostalgic person.

I'm not like, oh, it was so much better then.

Why can't it be like that now?

Like, it's done.

It's gone.

I don't want to be that person.

I don't want to go to the China Club again.

I don't want to be drunk in the street.

I don't want to do any of it.

And so, I only use it

as a way to look forward in the sense of like,

I'm so much better now.

Like, life is so much better now.

I'm so much more me now.

That was all me figuring out who the hell I was.

Like, I say, if you're not If you just turned 40,

you're not even you yet.

>> Yes.

>> So, all of

that stuff is just back there to help push you this way.

You know?

>> Oh, yeah.

So, you feel like you don't start becoming yourself until 40 at least.

>> I don't think you know who you are until then.

I didn't know who I was until I turned 60.

I mean, this is a grand generalization, of course.

>> Sure.

>> But, for women in particular, maybe this will change.

We've never been allowed to put ourselves first.

We are wives, we are mothers, we are caretakers,

and so it's only

when you That's why 50 is

so difficult for so many women.

They become empty nesters,

their purpose what they had their whole lives is suddenly gone.

Like, who am I if I'm not raising a child?

Like, if that was their purpose.

And so I think I think it takes until you turn 50 to get

back and uh uh Jane Fonda said this,

to get back to the girl you were always meant to be,

which is when you didn't have anybody

but yourself to take care of

when you were young.

It was just you.

And I think when you get the opportunity to get back to that,

you become a very different person.

And that's all part of the Glennon Doyle quote

and all of those things tie in together.

It's like removing all of the things from your life

that you were in charge of

that weren't you,

lets you finally be you.

Does that make sense?

>> Of course it does.

What are you What do you do for fun, Heidi?

>> >> What are you What are you getting up to these days?

>> This.

>> This.

Well, you have your podcast, obviously.

>> Um fun.

>> But that's work.

>> What do I I love doing my podcast.

It's so fun for me.

I love that.

Um um it it's I'm

so thrilled that all of the things

that I do for a living bring me joy.

I wouldn't do them otherwise.

They've always been it it

and that that's the hard thing for creative people is your financial is tied

to what you do for fun,

your passion.

You know, you're a writer, like, it's hard.

It's very hard.

Um what do I do for fun?

Gosh, I don't know about going to concerts.

Love going to concerts.

I was like, I don't know if I have fun going to concerts.

Uh I love going to concerts.

Festivals.

Um you know, uh I'm a huge sort of pop folk person like Noah

Kahan makes >> Like Florence

and the Machine type vibe?

>> Absolutely.

Yeah.

I love going to shows.

I love listening to music outside at night.

There's nothing more beautiful.

Um, I love going to the beach with my dog.

I love simple things.

I Shopping is so fun for me.

>> That one's tough.

>> It's hard, but >> Concerts are expensive, too.

>> Staying curious is what keeps me young and staying curious is fun for me.

Like when I see there's a new restaurant an hour away from my house,

I'm like, I'm in the car, I'm going.

I'll go by myself.

Yeah, anything.

Something new or fun to do or whatever it is, I'm in.

I'm going.

What are the people talking about?

I'm going to go and do that.

I got to go do that.

What is that?

Ice cream machine museum?

I got to go there.

Where is that?

I got to do that.

So, I'm that person.

So, I do anything for fun.

>> Do you feel

because a lot of the women who are going to be listening,

their mothers are in a similar age bracket to yourself.

>> Mhm.

>> Many of whom are probably not living their best lives in a major,

major way.

Um, because they were brought up at the same time as you, um,

with a lot of the same narratives and a lot of the same burdens.

I have a two-pronged question.

One, how do you feel like you escaped

that fate of being

so of sort of like your life being defined by

so many outward burdens

and expectations and and feelings of being disappointing uh,

or disappointing others.

And two, does that create a divide where you have a hard time finding

women your age who you feel are true kindred spirits?

>> It definitely puts me in a different field to be single and childless.

>> Yes.

>> And I think being single

and childless was a lot easier to figure out who I was cuz I

didn't have other people depending on me