Sundar Pichai: CEO of Google and Alphabet | Lex Fridman Podcast #471

There was a 5-year waiting

list and we got a rotary

telephone, but it dramatically changed our lives.

You know, people would come to our house to make calls to their loved ones.

You know, I I would have to go all the way to the hospital

to get blood test records and it would take 2 hours to go and

they would say, "Sorry, it's not ready.

Come back the next day."

2 hours to come back.

And that became a five-minute thing.

So as a kid like I mean this light bulb went in my head

you know this power of technology

to kind of change people's lives.

We had no running water

you know it was a massive drought.

So they would get water in these

trucks maybe eight buckets per household.

So me and my brother sometimes my mom

we would wait in line

get that and bring it back

many years later like

we had running water and we had a water heater

and you could get hot water to take a shower.

I mean like so you know for me everything was discreet like that.

Uh and so I've always had this thing you know firsthand

feeling of like how technology

can dramatically change like

your life and like the opportunity it brings.

I think if pedom is actually high

at some point all of humanity is like

aligned in making sure that's not the case right and so

we'll actually make more progress against it I think so the irony

is so there is a

self-modulating aspect there like I think if humanity

collectively puts their mind to solving a problem whatever it is I think we

can get there so

because of that I think I'm optimistic on the pdoom

scenarios But that doesn't mean

I think the underlying risk is actually pretty high.

But I'm uh you know I have a lot of faith in

humanity kind of rising up to the to meet that moment.

Take me through that experience when there's all these articles

saying you're the wrong guy to lead Google through this. Google is lost. It's done. It's over.

The following is a conversation

with Sundar Pachai, the CEO

of Google and Alphabet

on this the Lex Freedman podcast.

Your life story is inspiring to a lot of people.

It's inspiring to me.

You grew up in India,

whole family living in a humble

two- room apartment, very little, almost no access to technology.

And from those humble

beginnings, you rose to lead

a $2 trillion technology company.

So if you could travel back in time and told that, let's say, 12-year-old

Sundar that you're now leading one of the largest companies in human history, what

do you think that

young kid would say?

I would have probably laughed it off.

Um, you know, uh,

probably too far-fetched to

imagine or believe at that time.

You would have to explain the internet first for sure.

I mean computers to me at that time.

You know I was 12 in 1984.

So probably uh you know by then I started reading about them.

I had seen one.

What was that place like?

Take me to your childhood.

You know I grew up in Chennai.

Uh it's in south of India.

It's a beautiful bustling city.

Lots of people, lots of energy,

you know, simple life.

Definitely like fond memories of

playing cricket outside the home.

We just used to play on the streets.

All the neighborhood kids would come out and we would play till it got

dark and we couldn't play anymore barefoot.

Um, traffic would come,

we would just stop the game,

everything would drive through and you would just continue playing, right?

Just to kind of get the visual in your head.

You know, precomputers there's a lot of free time now.

Now that I think about it,

now you have to go and seek that

quiet solitude or something.

Newspapers, books is how I gained access to the

was information at the time, you will.

Uh my grandfather was a big influence.

He worked in the post office.

He was so good with language.

His English, you know, his handwriting

till today is the most beautiful handwriting I've ever seen.

He would write so clearly.

He was so articulate.

And so he kind of got me introduced into books. He loved politics.

So we we could talk about

anything and you know that was there in my family throughout.

So uh lots of books, trashy books,

good books, everything from

iron rand to books on philosophy

to stupid crime novels.

So books was a big part of my life.

But that kind of

this soul it's not surprising I ended up at Google because Google's mission kind

of always resonated deeply with me

this access to knowledge

I was hungry for it

but definitely have you know fond memories of my childhood

access to knowledge was there

so that's the wealth

we had uh you know every aspect of technology I had to wait for

a while I've obviously spoken before about how long it took for us to

get a phone about 5 years but it's not the only thing a telephone.

There was a 5-year waiting list.

Uh and we got a rotary uh telephone. Mhm.

But it dramatically changed our lives.

You know, people would come to our house to make calls to their loved ones.

You know, I I would have to go all the way to the hospital

to get blood test records and it would take 2 hours to go and

they would say, "Sorry, it's not ready.

Come back the next day."

2 hours to come back.

And that became a 5m minute thing.

So as a kid like I mean this light bulb went in my head

you know this power of technology to kind of change people's lives.

We had no running water

you know it was a massive drought.

So they would get water in these

trucks maybe eight buckets per household.

So me and my brother sometimes my mom

we would wait in line

get that and bring it back

many years later like

we had running water and we had a water heater

and you could get hot water to take a shower.

I mean like so you know for me everything was discreet like that.

Uh and so I've always had this thing you know firsthand

feeling of like how technology

can dramatically change like

your life and like the opportunity it brings.

So, you know, that was kind of a subliminal

takeaway for me throughout growing up.

And, you know, I I kind of actually observed it and felt it, you know.

So, we had to convince my dad for a long time to get a VCR.

Do you know what a VCR is? Yeah.

I'm trying to date you now.

But, you know, because before

that, you only had like kind of one TV channel. Mhm. Right. That's it.

Um, and so, you know, you can watch movies or something like that, but

this was by the time I was in 12th grade, we got a VCR.

You know, it was a

uh like a Panasonic,

which we had to go to some like

shop, which had kind of smuggled it in, I guess, and that's where we

bought a VCR, but then being able to

record like a World Cup football game

and then or like get put like video tapes and watch movies like all that.

So like you know I had these discrete

memories growing up and so

you know always left me with the feeling of like

how getting access to technology

drives that step change in your life.

I don't think you'll ever be able to equal

the first time you get hot water

to have that convenience

of going and opening a tap and have hot water come out. Yeah. It's interesting.

We take for granted

the progress we've made.

If you look at

human history, just those plots that look at GDP

across 2,000 years and you see that exponential

growth to where most of the progress happened since the industrial

revolution and we just take for granted.

We forget how how far we've gone.

So our ability to

understand how great we have it

and also how quickly technology can improve is quite poor.

Oh, I mean it's it's extraordinary.

You know, I go back to India now.

the power of mobile.

You know, it's mind-blowing to see the progress through the arc of time. It's phenomenal.

What advice would you give to young folks listening to

this all over the world

who look up to you and

uh find your story

inspiring who want to be maybe the next

Bachai who want to start create companies

uh build something that has a lot of impact in the world.

Look, it's you have a lot of luck along the way, but you obviously

have to make smart choices.

you're thinking about what you want to do.

Your brain is telling you something.

But when you do things, I think it's important to kind of get that

listen to your heart and see whether you actually enjoy doing it, right?

That that feeling of

if you love what you

do, it's so much easier

and you're going to see the best version of yourself.

It's easier said than done.

I think it's tough to find things

uh you love doing.

Um but I think kind of listening to your heart a bit more than

your mind in terms of figuring out what you want to do I think

I think is one of the best things I would uh tell people.

The second thing is I mean trying to

work with people who you feel at various points in my life I worked

with people who I felt were better than me

right kind of like

you know you almost

are sitting in a room talking to someone and they're like wow like you

know you know and you want that feeling a few times trying to get

yourself in a position

where you're working with people

who you feel are kind of like

stretching your abilities is what helps you grow I think

uh so putting yourself in uncomfortable

situations and I think often you'll surprise yourself.

So I think being open-minded

enough to kind of put yourself in those positions is maybe

uh maybe another thing I would say.

What lessons can we learn maybe from an outsider perspective for me

looking at your story

and gotten to know you a bit.

You're humble, you're kind.

Usually when I think of somebody

who has had a journey like yours and climbs to the very top

of leadership, they're us in a cutthroat

world, they're usually going to be a bit of an

So what wisdom are we supposed to draw from the fact

that uh your general approach of is of balance, of humility,

of kindness, listening to everybody?

What's what's what's your secret?

I do get angry.

I do get frustrated.

I I have the same emotions

all of us do right in the context of work and everything.

Uh but a few things right I I I

think you know I

over time I figured out the best way to get the most out of people.

uh you know you kind of find

missionoriented people who are in the shad journey who have this inner drive to

excellence to do the best

and and you know you kind of motivate people and and and

you can you can achieve a lot that way

right and so it it often tends to work out that way

but have there been times like you know I lo lose it yeah but

you know not maybe less often than others

uh and maybe over the years

less and less so because you know I

find it's not needed to achieve what you need to do.

So losing your has not been productive. Yeah.

Less often than not I think people respond to that. Yeah.

They may do stuff to react to that like but you you actually want

them to do the right thing and and and

so you know maybe there's a bit of like sports

you know you know I'm a sports fan

in football coaches uh in soccer

uh that football uh you know people people often talk about like man management

right coaches do right I think there is an element of that in our

lives how do you get the best out of the people you work with

you know at times you're working with people who who are so committed to

achieving if they've done something wrong

they feel it more than you

you do right so you treat them

differently than you know occasionally there are people who you need to clearly let

them know like that wasn't okay or whatever it is

but I've often found

that not to be the case and sometimes

the right words at the right time

spoken firmly can reverberate

through time also sometimes the unspoken

words you know people can sometimes see that

like you know you're unhappy without you saying it

and so sometimes the silence can uh deliver that message even more

sometimes less is more

um who's the greatest uh soccer player of all time Messi or Ronaldo

or Pelle or Maradona

I'm going to make

you know in this question is this going to be a political answer

no I I I will tell the truthful answer because

uh answer it is you know it's been interesting because my son is a

big Cristiano Ronaldo fan

And uh so we've had to watch

LC Classicos together, you know, with that dynamic in there.

I so admire CR7s.

I mean, I've never seen an athlete more committed to that kind of excellence.

And so he's one of the all-time greats,

but you know, for me, Messi is it. Yeah.

Yeah, when I see

Leon Messi, you just

are in awe that humans are able to achieve that level of greatness and genius and artistry.

When we talk, we'll talk about AI, maybe robotics and this kind of stuff,

that level of genius.

I'm not sure you can possibly

match by AI in a long time.

It's just an example of greatness.

And you have that kind of greatness in other disciplines,

but in sport, you get to visually see it unlike anything else.

and just the the timing,

movement, this is genius.

I had the chance to see him a couple weeks ago.

He played in uh San Jose.

So um against the Quake.

So I went to see it, see the game.

I was a fan on the had good seats.

Knew where he would play in the second half hopefully.

And uh even at his age, just watching him when he gets the ball,

that movement, you know, you're right, that special

quality, it's tough to describe, but you feel it when you see it.

Yeah, he still got it.

Uh, if we rank all the technological

innovations throughout human history, let's go back

uh maybe the history of human civilizations

12,000 years ago and you rank them by

the how much of a productivity multiplier they've been.

So uh we can go to electricity

or the labor mechanization

of the industrial revolution

or we can go back to the first agricultural

revolution 12,000 years ago

in that long list of inventions.

Do you think AI

when history is written a thousand years from now do you think

it has a chance to be the number one productivity multiplier?

It's a great question.

Look, many years ago, I think it might have been 2017 or 2018.

Um, you know, I I said at the time like, you know, AI is

the most profound technology

humanity will ever work on.

It'll be more profound than fire or electricity.

So, I have to back myself.

I, you know, I still think

uh that's the case.

You know, when you asked this question, I was thinking, well,

do we have a recency bias, right?

You know, like in sports, it's very tempting to call the current person you're

seeing the greatest Yes. player, right?

and and so is there a recency

bias and you know

I do think uh from first principles I would argue

AI will be bigger than all of those I didn't live through those

moments you know two years ago I had to go through a surgery and

then I processed that there was a point in time people didn't have anesthesia

when they went through these procedures

at that moment I was like that has got to be the greatest invention

humanity has ever ever done right so

look We we don't know what it is to have uh lived through those

times but you know and

many of what you're talking about were kind of this

general things which pretty much affected

everything you know electricity or internet etc.

But I don't think we have ever dealt with a technology

both which is progressing

so fast, becoming so capable.

It's not clear what the ceiling

is and the main unique it's recursively self-improving, right?

It's capable of that.

And so the fact it is going it's the first technology

will kind of dramatically

accelerate creation itself like creating things

building new things can can improve and achieve things on its

own right I think like puts it in a different league

right and so uh different league and so I think

the impact it'll end up having

uh will far surpass

everything we've seen before

uh obviously with that comes a lot

uh important things to think and wrestle with, but I definitely think that'll end

up being the case, especially if it gets to the point of where we

can achieve superhuman performance on the AI research itself.

So, it's a technology

that may that's an open question,

but it may be able to achieve a level to where the technology

itself can create itself

better than it it could yesterday.

It's like the move 37

of alpha research or whatever it is, right?

Like, you know, and when when Yeah, you're right.

when when it can do

novel self-directed research obviously for a long time we'll we'll

have hopefully always humans in the loop and all that stuff and these are

complex questions to talk about but yes I think the underlying

technology you know I've said this like if you watched

seeing AlphaGo start from

scratch be clueless and like become

better through the course of a day

you know like you know kind like kind of like you know really it

hits you when you see that happen

even our like the V3

models if you sample the models when they were like 30%

done and 60% done and looked at what they were

generating and you kind of see how it all comes

together it's kind of like I would say

it's kind of inspiring

a little bit unsettling

right as a as a human so all of that is true I think

well the interesting thing

of the industrial revolution

electricity like you mentioned.

You can go back to the again

the agricultural the first agricultural revolution.

There's um what's called the Neolithic

package of the first agricultural

revolution that it wasn't

just that the nomads

settled down and started planting food.

But all this other kinds of

technology was born from that and it's included in this package.

It wasn't one piece of technology.

It's there's these ripple effects,

second and third order effects that happen.

Everything from something silly like

silly profound like pottery

that can store liquids and food

uh to something we kind of take for granted but social hierarchies

uh and political hierarchy.

So like early government was formed cuz it turns out if humans stop

moving and have some surplus

food they start coming up with uh they get bored and they start coming

up with interesting systems

then trade emerges which

turns out to be a really profound thing and like I said government there

I mean there's just

uh second and third order effects from that including that package is incredible

and probably extremely difficult

if if you ask one of the people in the nomadic tribes

to predict that it would be impossible.

It's difficult to predict.

But all that said,

what do you think

are some of the

early things we might see in the quote unquote AI package?

I mean, most of it probably we don't know today, but like you know

the one thing which we can tangibly

start seeing now is

you know obviously with the coding progress you got a sense of it.

It's going to be so easy to imagine

like thoughts in your head translating

that into things that exist.

That'll be part of the package, right?

Like it's going to empower

almost all of humanity

to kind of express themselves.

Maybe in the past you could have expressed with

words but like you could kind of build things into existence, right?

You know, maybe not fully today.

We are at the early stages of VIP coding.

You know, I've been amazed at what people have put out online with V3,

but it takes a bit of work, right?

You have to stitch together a set of prompts,

but all this is going to get better.

The thing I always think about, this is the worst it'll ever be, right?

Like at any given moment in time.

Yeah, it's interesting you went

there as kind of a first thought.

So the exponential increase

of access to creativity,

creation, are you creating a program,

a piece of content for to be shared with

others, games down the line,

all of that like just becomes infinitely more possible.

Well, I think the big thing is that

uh it makes it accessible.

It unlocks the cognitive capabilities

of the entire 8 billion. No, I agree.

Look, think about 40 years

ago, maybe in the US there were five people who could do what you were doing. Mhm.

Like go do a interview,

you know, and you know,

but today think about with YouTube and other other products etc.

Like how many more people are doing it?

So I think this is what technology does, right?

Like when the internet created

blogs, you know, you heard from so many more people.

So I think but but with AI

I think that number won't be in the few hundreds of

thousands it'll be tens of millions of people

maybe even a billion

people like putting out things into the world in a

deeper way and I think it'll change the landscape of creativity

and makes a lot of people nervous like for example

uh whatever Fox MSNBC

CNN are really nervous about this part like you mean this dude in a

who could just do this

and and use and YouTube

and and and thousands of others,

tens of thousands, millions of other creators can do the same kind of thing.

That makes him nervous.

And now you get a podcast from Nobook LM.

That's about five to 10 times better than any podcast I've ever done. True.

I'm I'm joking at this time, but maybe not. And that changes.

you have to evolve

because I on the podcasting

front, I'm a fan of

podcasts much more than I am a fan of being a host or whatever.

If there's great podcasts that are both AIs,

I'll just stop doing this podcast.

I'll listen to that podcast.

But you have to evolve and you have to change and that makes people

really nervous, I think.

But it's also really exciting future.

The only thing I may say is I do think like

in a world in which there are two AI, I think

people value and uh

choose just like in chess

you and I would never watch

Stockfish 10 or whatever and Alph Go play against each like it would be

boring for us to watch

but Magnus Carlson and Gish

that game would be much more fascinating to watch.

So it's tough to say like one way to say is

you'll have a lot more content and so you will be listening to AI

generated content because sometimes it's efficient etc.

But the premium experiences

you value might be a version of like the human essence wherever it comes

through going back to what we talked earlier about watching

Messi dribble the ball.

I don't know one day I'm sure a machine will dribble much better than

Messi but I don't know whether it would evoke that same emotion in us.

So I think that'll be fascinating to see.

I think the element

of podcasting or audiobooks

that is about information

gathering that part might be removed

or that might be more efficiently

and in a compelling way done by AI

but then it'll be just nice

to hear humans struggle with the

information contend with the information

try to internalize it combine it with the complexity of our own emotions and

consciousness and all that kind of stuff but if you actually want to find

out about a piece of

history, you go to Gemini.

If you want to see Lex

struggle with that history,

then you look or other humans, you look you look at that.

But that the point is it's going to change the nature

uh continue to change the nature of how we discover information, how we consume

the information, how we create that information.

The same way that YouTube

change everything completely, change news,

it change and that's something our society is struggling with.

Yeah, YouTube look YouTube enabled

I mean you know this better than anyone else.

It's enabled so many creators.

There is no doubt in me that like we will enable

more filmmakers than there have ever been right.

You're going to empower a lot more people.

Um so I think there's an expansionary

aspect of this which is underestimated.

I think I think it'll

unleash human creativity in a way uh that hasn't been seen before.

It's tough to internalize.

The only way is if you if you brought someone from the 50s or

40s and just put them in front of YouTube,

you know, I think it would blow their mind away.

Similarly, I think we would get blown away by what's possible in a 10

to 20 year time frame.

Uh do you think there's a future?

How many years out is it that let's say

let's put a marker on it?

50% of content in a compel good content

50% of good content

is generated by V4 56.

You know, I think depends on what it is for.

Um, like you know, maybe if you look at movies today with

CGI, there are great filmmakers

like you still look at like who the directors are and who use it.

There are filmmakers who don't use it at all. You value that.

There are people who use it incredibly.

You know, think about somebody like a James Cameron

like what he would do with these tools in his hands.

But I think there'll be a lot more content created like just like writers

today use Google Docs

and not think about the fact that they using a tool like that

like people will be using the future versions of these things

like it won't be a big deal at all to them.

I've gotten a chance to get to know Darren Aronowski well.

He's been really leaning in and trying to figure it's it's fun to

watch a genius who came up

before any of this was even remotely possible.

He created Pi, one of my favorite movies, and from there just continued to

create a really interesting variety of movies.

And now he's trying to see how can AI be used to create compelling films.

You have people like that.

You have people I've gotten to just know

uh edgier folks uh that are AI first like Door Brothers.

Both Areronowski and Door Brothers create

at the edge of

the Overton window of society.

You know, they push

whether it's uh sexuality or or violence.

It's edgy like artists are, but it's still classy.

It doesn't cross that line.

Uh whatever that line is, you know. Um Hunter S.

Thommpson is this line

that the uh the only way to find out where the edge where the

line is is by crossing it.

Uh and I think for artists that's true.

That's kind of their purpose.

Sometimes comedians and artists just cross that line.

I wonder if you can comment

on the weird place that

puts Google because Google's line is probably different than some of these artists.

What what's your how do you think about

specifically Vio um and

Flo about like how to allow artists to get do crazy

but also like the responsibility

of um not for it not to be too crazy.

I It's a great question.

Look, part of you mentioned Darren

uh you know he's a clear visionary, right?

Part of the reason we work started working with him early on

VO is he's one of those

people who was able to kind of

see that future get inspired

by it and kind of showing the way for how

creative people can express themselves with it.

Look, I think when it comes to

allowing artistic free expression

is one of the most important values in a society, right?

I think you know artists have always been the ones

to push push boundaries

expand the frontiers of thought

uh and so look I think I think that's going to be an important

value we have so

I think we will provide

tools and put it in the hands of artists for them to use and

put out their work

those APIs I mean I almost think of that as infrastructure

just like when you provide electricity

to people or something you want them to

use it and like you're not thinking about the use cases on top of it.

So it's a paintbrush. Yeah.

And and so I think that's how obviously

there have to be

some things and you know society needs to decide at a a fundamental level

what's okay, what's not.

Uh we'll be responsible with it.

Um but I do think

you know when it comes to artistic

free expression I think that's one of those

values we should work hard to defend.

Uh I wonder if you can comment

on um maybe earlier versions of Gemini were a little bit careful

on the kind of

things you would be willing to answer.

I just want to comment on

I was really surprised

and uh pleasantly surprised

and enjoy the fact that Gemini

25 Pro is a lot less careful in a good sense.

Don't ask me why, but I've been doing a lot of research on Jenghask

Khan and the the Aztecs.

Uh, so there's a lot of violence there in that history.

It's a very violent history.

I've also been doing a lot of research on World War I and World War II.

And earlier versions of Gemini were very

um basically this kind of sense, are you sure you want to learn about this?

And now it's actually very

factual, objective, uh, talks about very difficult parts of human history

and does so with nuance and depth.

It's it's been really nice.

But there's a line there that I guess Google has to kind of walk.

I wonder if it's and it's also an engineering challenge how to

how to do that at scale across all the weird

queries that people ask.

What um can you just speak to that challenge?

How do you allow

Gemini to say again,

forgive, pardon my French,

crazy but not too

not not too crazy.

I think one of the good insights here has

been as the models are getting more

capable, the models are really good at this stuff, right?

And so I think in some ways maybe a year ago the models weren't fully there.

So they would also do stupid things more

often and so you know you're trying to

handle those edge cases but then you make a mistake in how you handle

those edge cases and it compounds.

But I think with 2.5

what we particularly found is once the models

cross a certain level of intelligence and

sophistication you know they are they are able to reason through these nuanced issues pretty well.

And I think users really want that right like you know you want

as much access to the raw model as possible

right but I think it's a great area to think about like you know

over time you know

we should allow more and more closer

access to it maybe

obviously let people custom prompts if they wanted to and like you know and

you know experiment with it etc.

uh I I think that's an important direction but look the first principles we

want to think about it is

you know from a scientific

standpoint like making sure the models and I'm saying scientific in the sense of

like how you would approach math or physics or something like that

from first principles having the models reason about the world

be nuanced etc uh you know from the ground up is the right way

to build these things right

not like some subset of humans is kind of hard coding

things on top of it.

Uh so I think it's the direction we've been taking and I think you'll

see us continue to push in that direction. Yeah.

I actually asked uh I gave these notes I took extensive notes and I

gave them to Gemini

and said can you

ask a novel question that's not in these

notes and it wrote

Gemini continues to really surprise

me really surprise me.

It's been really beautiful. It's incredible model.

Uh the the question it's it it generated

was you meaning Sundar

told the world Gemini is turnurning out 480

trillion tokens a month.

Uh what's the most life-changing

fiveword sentence hiding in that hast stack?

That's a Gemini question,

but it made me it gave me a sense.

I don't think you can answer that, but it gave me it made it

woke me up to like

all of these tokens

are providing little aha moments for

people across the globe.

So that's like learning that those tokens are people are curious.

They ask a question and they find something out and it truly could be life-changing. Oh, it is.

I look I know

I had the same feeling about search many many years ago.

You you know you you

definitely you know this tokens per month is like grown 50 times in the last 12 months.

Is that accurate by the way? Yeah, it is.

You know it is it is accurate.

I'm glad it got it right.

Um, but you know that number was

9.7 trillion tokens per month 12 months ago, right?

It's gone gone up to 480.

You know, it's a 50x increase.

So there's no limit to human cur curiosity.

Uh, and I think it's it's one of those moments.

Uh, maybe I don't think it is there today, but maybe one day there's

a phrase which says

what the actual universe is or something like that and something very meaningful.

But I don't think we are quite there yet.

Do you think the scaling laws are holding strong

on um there's a lot of ways to describe the scaling laws for AI,

but on the pre-training

on the post-training fronts?

So the flip side of that, do you anticipate AI progress will hit a wall?

Is there a wall?

You know, it's a cherished micro kitchen conversation.

Once in a while I have it,

you know, like when Demis is visiting or, you know,

Dennis, Cori, Jeff, Gnome, Sergey, a bunch of our people like we sit and

uh, you know, you know, talk about this, right?

And um, look, I

we see a lot of headroom ahead, right?

I think uh, we've been able to optimize

and improve on all fronts, right?

uh pre-training, post-raining, test time,

compute, tool use, right?

Over time, making these more agentic.

So, getting these models to be

more general world models in that direction like V3

uh you know, the physics understanding is dramatically better than what

V1 or something like that was.

So, you kind of see on all those dimensions.

I I feel you know progress is very obvious to

see and I feel

like there is significant

headroom more importantly you know I'm fortunate to work with some of the

best researchers on the planet right they think

uh there is more headroom to be had here

uh and so I think we have an exciting trajectory

ahead it's tougher to say

you know each year I sit and say okay we're going to throw 10x

more compute over the course of next year at it and like will we

see progress sitting here today I feel like the year ahead we'll have a

lot of progress and do you feel any

limitations like that the

bottlenecks compute limited uh data limited idea limited

do you feel any of those limitations

or is it full steam ahead on all fronts

I think it's compute limited in this sense right like you know we can

all part of the reason you've seen us do

flash nano flash and pro models

but not an ultra model.

It's like for each generation,

we feel like we've been able to get the Pro model at like

I don't know 80 90% of ultra

capability, but ultra would be a

a lot more uh

like slow and lot more expensive to

But what we've been able to do is to

go to the next generation and make the next generation's

pro as good as the previous generation's ultra. Yeah.

But be able to serve it in a way that it's fast and you

can use it and so on.

So I do think scaling laws are working.

But it's tough to get

at any given time.

The models we all use the

most is maybe like a few months behind the maximum capability we can deliver, right?

because that won't be the fastest,

easiest to use, etc.

Also, that's in terms of intelligence.

It becomes harder and harder to measure

uh performance in quotes

because, you know, you could argue Gemini

Flash is much more impactful

than Pro just because of the latency.

It's super intelligent already.

I mean sometimes like latency is

uh maybe more important than

intelligence especially when the intelligence is just a little bit less in flash not

it's still incredibly smart model. Yeah.

And so you you have to now start measuring impact and then

it feels like benchmarks

are less and less capable of capturing the intelligence of models, the effectiveness of

models, the usefulness, the real world usefulness of models.

Uh another kitchen question.

So lots of folks are talking about timelines for

AGI or ASI artificial super intelligence.

So AGI loosely defined

is basically human expert level at a lot of the main

fields of pursuit for humans

and then ASI is

what AGI becomes presumably

quickly by being able to self-improve.

So becoming far superior in intelligence across all these disciplines than humans.

When do you think we'll have HGI?

Is 2030 a possibility?

Uh there's one other term we should throw in there.

I don't know who who used it first.

Maybe Karpati did AJI.

Have you have you heard AJI?

The artificial jagged intelligence

sometimes feels that way right both there are progress and you see what they

can do and then like you can trivially

find they make numerical

errors or like you know

counting Rs and strawberry or something which seems to trip up most models or

whatever it is, right?

So uh so maybe we should throw that term in there.

I feel like we are in the AJI

phase where like dramatic progress

some things don't work well but overall

you know you're seeing

uh lots of progress

but if your question is will will it happen by

2030 look we constantly

move the line of what it means to be

AGI there are moments today you know like sitting in a way in a

San Francisco street with all the crowds and the people and

kind of work its way through

I see glimpses of it there.

The car is sometimes kind of impatient

trying to work its way

uh using Astra like in Gemini Live or seeing

uh you know asking questions about the world.

What's this skinny building doing in my neighborhood?

It's a street light, not a building.

You you see glimpses.

That's why I use the word AJI

because then you see stuff which obviously

you know we far from AGI too.

So you have both experiences

simultaneously happening to you.

I'll answer your question, but I'll also throw out this.

I almost feel the term doesn't matter.

What I know is by 2030

there'll be such dramatic progress.

We'll be dealing with the

consequences of that progress

both the positives uh both the positive externalities

and the negative externalities

that come with it in a big way by 2030.

So that I strongly feel

right whatever we may be arguing about the term or maybe Gemini can answer

what that moment is in time in

2030 but I think the progress will be dramatic

right so that I believe in

will the AI think it has reached AGI

by 2030 I would say we will just fall short of that timeline

right so I think it'll take a bit longer

it's amazing in the early days of Google deep mind in 2010

they talked about a 20-year time frame to achieve

uh AGI So which is which is kind of fascinating to see.

But you know I for me the whole thing

seeing what Google brain did in 2012

and when we acquired deep mind in 2014

uh right close to where we're sitting

in 2012 you know Jeff Dean showed the image of when the neural networks

could recognize uh a picture of a cat right and identify it.

you know this is the early versions of brain right and

so you know we all talked about couple

decades I don't think we'll quite get there by

2030 so my sense is it's slightly after that

but I I would stress it doesn't matter

like what that definition

because you will have mind-blowing

progress on many dimensions

maybe AI can create videos

we have to figure out as a society how do we we need some

system by which we all agree that this is AI generated

and we have to disclose it in a certain way because how do you distinguish reality otherwise?

Yeah, there's so many interesting things you said.

So, first of all, just looking back at this recent

now feels like distant history

uh with Google brain.

I mean that was before TensorFlow

before TensorFlow was made public and open sourced.

So, the tooling matters too combined with GitHub

ability to share code.

Then you have the ideas

of attention transformers and the diffusion

now and then there might be a new idea

that seems simple in retrospect

but will change everything

and that could be the post training the inference time innovations

and I think Shad Cen tweeted that

Google is just one great UI from completely

winning the AI race

meaning like UI is a huge part of it like how that intelligence

uh uh I think Logan Cop project likes to talk about this right now.

It's an LLM but it become like when is it going to become a

system where you're talking about shipping systems versus shipping the particular model.

Yeah, that matters too.

How the system is

um manifest itself and how it presents itself to the world that really really matters. Oh hugely so.

There are simple UI

innovations which have changed the world right and

uh I absolutely think so.

um we will see a lot more progress in the next couple of years

is I think AI

itself uh on a self-improving

track for UI itself like you know today

we are like constraining

the models the models can't quite

express themselves in terms of the UI to to people

um but that is uh like you know if you think about it we've

kind of boxed them in that

way but given these models can code

uh you know they should be able to write the best interfaces

to express their ideas over time, right?

That is an incredible idea.

So the APIs are already open.

So you you create a really nice

agentic system that continuously

improves the way you can be talking to an AI. Yeah.

But it a lot of that is the interface

and then of course the

incredible multimodal aspect of the interface that Google's been pushing.

These models are natively multimodal.

They can easily take content from any format, put it in any format.

They can write a good user interface.

They probably understand your preferences better that over

time like you know and so

so all this is like

the evolution ahead, right?

And so um that goes back to where we started the conversation.

I like I think there'll be dramatic evolutions

in the years ahead.

Maybe one more kitchen question.

uh this even further ridiculous

concept of P doom.

So the philosophically minded folks in the AI community

think about the probability

that AGI and then

ASI might destroy all of human civilization.

I would say my PDM is about 10%.

Do you ever think about this kind

of long-term threat of ASI

and what would your P doom be?

Look, I mean for sure.

Look, I've uh both been

uh very excited about AI.

Uh but I've always felt

uh this is a technology,

you know, we have to actively

think about the risks and

work very very hard

to harness it in a way that it it all works out well.

Um on the PDOM question, look, it's you know, won't surprise you to say

that's probably another micro kitchen conversation that pops up once in a while, right?

And given how powerful the technology

is, maybe stepping back, you know, when you're running a large organization,

if you can kind of align the incentives

of the organization, you can achieve pretty much anything, right?

Like, you know, if you can get kind of people all marching in

towards like a goal

uh in a very focused way, in a mission-driven way, you can pretty much achieve anything.

But it's very tough to organize

all of humanity that way.

But I think if pedom is actually high

at some point all of humanity

is like aligned in making sure that's not the case right and so

we'll actually make more progress against it I think so the irony

is so there is a

self-modulating aspect there like I think if humanity

collectively puts their mind to solving a problem whatever it is I think we

can get there so

because of that you know I I

I I think I'm optimistic take on the pdoom

scenarios, but that doesn't mean

I think the underlying risk is actually pretty

high, but I'm uh you know, I have a lot of faith in

humanity kind of rising up to the to meet that moment.

That's really really well put.

I mean, as the threat becomes more concrete and real,

humans do really come together and get their together.

Well, the other thing I think people don't often talk about is

probability of doom without AI.

So, there's all these other ways that humans can destroy themselves.

And it's very possible,

at least I believe so,

that AI will help us

become smarter, kinder to each other, uh more efficient.

uh it it'll help more parts of the world flourish where it would be

less resource constrainted which is often the source of military conflict and tensions and so on.

So we also have to load into that

what's the pdoom without AI

with AI Poom with AI

Poom without AI cuz it's very possible that AI will be the thing that

saves us saves human civilizations from all the other threats.

I agree with you.

I think I think it's insightful.

Uh look, I felt

like to make progress on some of the toughest problems

would be good to have AI

like pair helping you, right?

And and like you know, so that resonates with me for sure. Yeah. Quick pause. Bathroom break.

You know, let's do that.

If notebook LM was the same compel like what I saw today with Beam,

if it was compelling in the same kind of way, blew my mind. It was incredible.

Oh, I didn't think it's possible.

I didn't My was like, can you imagine like the US president and the

Chinese president being able to do something like Beam

with the live me translation working well?

So, they're both sitting

and talking, make progress a bit more.

Uh yeah, just uh for people listening, we took a quick bath break and

now we're talking about the demo I did.

We'll probably post it somewhere somehow, maybe here.

the I got a chance to experience beam and it

was it's hard to

it's hard to describe in words

how real it felt

with just what is it six cameras. It's incredible. It's incredible.

It's it's one of the toughest products of

you can't quite describe it to people

even when we show

it in slides etc like you don't know what it is

you have to kind of experience it

on the world leaders front on politics

geopolitics that there's something really special again with studying World War II

and uh how much could have been saved

if Chamberlain met Stalin

in person and I sometimes

also struggle explaining to people

articulating Why I believe meeting in person for world leaders is powerful.

It just seems naive to say that but there is something there in person

and with beam I I felt that same thing and then I'm

unable to explain all I kept doing is what like a child does

you look real you know

and I mean I don't know if that makes meetings

more productive or so on but it certainly makes them more

uh the same reason you want to show up to work versus remote sometimes

that human connection I don't know what that is.

It's hard to it's hard to put into words.

Um there's some there's something beautiful about

great teams collaborating on a thing that's

that's not captured by the productivity

of that team or

by whatever on paper.

Like some of the most beautiful moments you experience in life is at work

pursuing a difficult thing together for many months.

There's nothing like it.

you're in the trenches and yeah, you do form bonds that way for sure.

And to be able to do that like somewhat

remotely in that same personal touch, I don't know, that's a deeply fulfilling thing.

I know a lot of people I I personally hate meetings

because a significant percent of meetings when done

uh poorly are are don't don't serve a clear purpose.

So, but that's a meeting problem.

That's not a communication problem.

If you can improve the communication for the meetings that are

useful, that's just incredible.

So yeah, I was

blown away by the great engineering

behind it and then we we get to see what impact that has. That's really interesting.

But just incredible engineering. Really impressive. Oh, it is.

And obviously we'll work hard over the years to make it more and more accessible.

But yeah, even on a personal front outside of work meetings,

you know, a grandmother who's far away from our grandchild

and being able to,

you know, have that kind of an interaction, right?

All that I think will end up being very mean.

Nothing substitutes being in person,

but you know, it's not always possible.

You know, you could be a soldier

deployed, right, trying to talk to your loved ones.

So, I think uh you know, so that's what inspires us

when you and I

hung out last year and took a walk.

I remember I don't think we talked about this but but I remember

uh you know outside of that seeing dozens of articles written by analysts and

experts and so on that

um Sundar Pay should step down

because the perception was that Google

was definitively losing the AI race

has lost its magic

touch in the uh rapidly evolving

uh technological uh landscape

and now a year later it's crazy you showed this plot

of all the things that were shipped over the past year

is incredible and Gemini Pro is winning across many benchmarks

and products as we sit here today.

So, take me through that experience when there's all these articles

saying you're the wrong guy to lead Google through this.

Google's lost, it's done,

it's over to today where

Google is winning again.

What were some low points during that time?

Look, I um I mean lots to unpack.

Um you know, like

the main bet I made as a CEO was to

uh you know, make sure the company was

approaching everything in a AI first way.

Really, you know, setting ourselves up to develop AGI responsibly, right?

and and and make sure we're putting out products

uh which which embodies

that things that are very very useful for people.

So look, I I knew even through moments like that

last year, uh, you know, I had

a good sense of what we were building internally, right?

So I'd already made,

you know, many important

decisions, you know, bringing together

teams of the caliber of brain and deep mind and setting up Google deep mind.

There were things like

we made the decision to invest in TPUs 10 years ago.

So, we knew we were scaling up and building big models.

Anytime you're in a situation like

that, a few aspects,

uh, I'm good at tuning out noise, right?

Separating signal from noise.

Do you scuba dive? Like, have you? No.

You know, it's amazing.

Like I'm not good at it, but I've done it a few times.

But sometimes you jump in the ocean, it's so choppy.

But you go down

one ft under, it's the calst

thing in the entire uh universe, right?

So there's a version of that, right?

Like you know, uh

running Google, you know, you may as well be coaching Barcelona

or Real Madrid, right?

Like you know, you have a bad season.

So there are aspects to that but you know like look I I'm good

at tuning out the noise.

I do watch out for signals you know it's important to separate the signal from the noise.

So there are good people sometimes making good points outside.

So you want to listen to it.

You want to take that in.

But you know internally

like you know you're making a set of consequential decisions. Right?

As leaders you're making a lot of decisions.

Many of them are like

inconsequential like it feels like but over time you learn that

most of the decisions you're making on a day-to-day basis doesn't matter.

like you have to make them and you're making them just to keep things

moving but you have to make a few consequential

decisions right and uh

we had set up

the right teams right

leaders we had world-class

researchers we were training

Gemini internally there are factors which were for example outside people may not have

appreciated I mean TPUs are amazing

but we had to ramp up TPUs

two that took time, right?

And and uh to scale, actually having enough TPUs

to get the compute

needed, but I could see internally

the trajectory we were

on and and be, you know, I was so excited internally about the possibility.

To me, this moment felt like

one of the biggest opportunities

ahead for us as a company.

That the opportunity space ahead

over the next decade, next 20 years is bigger than what has

happened in the past.

Um, and I thought we were set up

like better than most companies in the world

to go uh realize that vision.

I mean you had to make

some consequential bold decisions

like you mentioned the merger

of deep mind and

Uh maybe it's my perspective just knowing humans.

I'm sure there's a lot of egos involved.

It's very difficult to merge teams and I'm sure there are some hard decisions to be made.

Can you take me through your process of how you think through that?

Do you go to pull the trigger and make that decision?

Maybe what were some painful points?

How do you navigate those turbulent waters?

Look, we were fortunate to have two world-class teams.

Uh but you're right, like it's like somebody coming and telling to you,

take Stanford and MIT, right?

And then put them together and create a great department, right?

And and easier said than done.

Uh but we were fortunate, you know, phenomenal

teams, both had their

strengths, you know, they were run very differently, right?

like uh brain was kind of a

lot of diverse projects

bottoms up and out of it came a lot of important research breakthroughs.

Deep mind at the time

had a strong vision of how you want to build AGI

and so they were pursuing their direction.

But I think through those moments

luckily tapping into um

you know Jeff had expressed a desire

to be more to go back to more of a

scientific individual contributor roots.

You know he felt like management was taking up too much of his time.

uh and and and

Demis naturally I think

uh you know uh was running deep mine

and was a natural choice there

but I think it was you were right you know it took us a

while to bring the teams together

credit to Deis Jeff

Kai all the great people there

they worked super hard to

combine the best of both worlds

when you set up that team

a few sleepless nights here and there as we put that thing together

we were patient in how we did it

so that it works well

for the long term, right?

And and some of that in that moment, I think yes,

with things moving fast,

uh I think you definitely

uh felt the pressure,

but I think we pulled off that uh transition

well and you know, I think I think uh you know, they've obviously

uh doing incredible work and there's a lot more incredible things ahead coming from them.

Like we talked about, you have a very calm, eventempered, respectful demeanor.

During that time, whether it's the merger

or just dealing with the noise,

uh did were there times where frustration boiled over?

Like, did you uh

have to go a bit more intense on everybody

than you usually would? Probably.

You know, probably right.

I think I think in the sense that you know it was a moment

where we were all driving hard

but when you're in the trenches

working with passion you're going to have days

right you disagree you

argue but like all that

I mean just part of the course of working

intensely right and uh

you know at the end of the day

all of us are doing what we're doing because

uh the impact it can have we're motivated

by it it's like uh you know for many of us this has been

a long-term uh journey

and so it's been super exciting

the positive moments far

outweigh the kind of stressful moments

just early this year

I had a chance to celebrate

backto back over two days

like you know Nobel Prize for Jeff Finton and the next day a Nobel

Prize for Dennis and John

Jumper you know you worked with people like that

all that is super inspiring

is there something like with view where you had to like put your foot

down maybe with less

uh versus more where like I'm the CEO

and we're m we're doing this

to my earlier point about consequential

decisions you make there are decisions you make people can disagree

pretty vehemently and but at some point like you know

you make a clear decision and

you you just ask people to commit

right like you know you can disagree

But it's time to disagree and come it so that we can get moving

and whether it's put putting the foot down or

you know like you know it's it's a natural part of what all of

us have to do and you know I think you can do that calmly

and be very firm in the direction you're

making the decision and

I think if you're clear actually people over time respect that right like you

know if you can make decisions with

clarity I find it very effective

in meetings where you're making

such decisions to hear everyone out.

I think it's important

when you can to hear everyone out.

Sometimes what you're hearing actually influences

how you think about and you're wrestling with it and making a decision.

Sometimes you have a clear conviction

and you state so look I

uh I you know this is how I feel

and you know this is my conviction and you kind of place the bet

and you move on.

other big decisions like that.

I'm kind of intuitively

assume the merger was the big one.

I think that was a very important decision

uh you know for for the company to

to meet the moment.

I think we had to make sure we were uh we were doing that

and doing that well.

I think that was a consequential decisions.

There were many other things.

We set up a AI infrastructure

team like to really go meet the moment to scale up the compute we

needed to and really brought teams from desperate parts of the company

kind of created it to to move forward.

um you know bringing people

like getting people to kind of work together physically

both in London with Deep Mind

and what we call Gradient Canopy

which is where the Mountain View

Google Deep Mind teams are.

But one of my favorite moments is

I routinely walk uh like multiple times per week to the graining canopy building

where our top researchers

are working on the models.

Sergey is often there amongst them, right?

Like you know just you know

looking at uh you know getting an update on the model seeing loss curves.

So all that I think that cultural part of getting the teams together

back with that energy

I think ended up playing a big role too.

What about the decision

to recently add AI mode?

So Google search is the uh as they say the front page of the internet.

It's like a minimalist

thing with 10 blue links.

Like that's when people think internet they think that page

and now you're starting to mess with that.

So the AI mode which is a separate tab and then integrating AI in the results.

I'm sure there were some battles

in meetings on that one.

Look uh you know in some ways when mobile

came you know people

wanted answers to more questions.

So we're kind of constantly evolving it.

But you're right this moment you know that evolution

uh because the underlying technology is becoming

much more capable you know

you can have AI give a lot of context

you know but one of our important design goals though is when you come

to Google search you're

going to get a lot of context

but you're going to go and find a lot of things out on the

web so that will be true in AI mode in AI overviews

and so on but I think to our earlier conversation

We are still giving you access to links

but think of the AI

as a layer which is giving you context

summary maybe in AI mode you can have a dialogue with it back and forth. Mhm.

On your journey right

and but through it all you're kind of learning what's out there in the world.

So those core principles don't change

but I think AI mode

allows us to push the we have our best models there

right uh models which are using search as a deep

tool really for every query you're asking

kind of fanning out doing multiple

searches like kind of assembling

that knowledge in a way so you can go and consume what you want

to right and and and

that's how we think about it I got a chance to listen to a

bunch of Elizabeth Liz Reed yeah describe

this two things stood out to me that you mentioned.

One thing is what you were talking about is the query fan

out which I didn't even think about

uh is the the powerful aspect of integrating a bunch of stuff on the

web for you in one place.

So yes, it provides that

context so that you can decide which page to then go on to.

The other really really big thing speaks to the

earlier in terms of productivity

multiplier that we're talking about that she mentioned was um language.

So one of the things you don't quite understand is it through AI

mode you make for non-English

speakers you make sort of let's say English language

websites accessible by in the reasoning

process as you try to figure out what you're looking for.

Of course, once you show up to a page, you can use a basic translate. Yeah.

But that process of figuring it out,

if you empathize with

a large part of the world that doesn't speak English,

their like web uh is much smaller

in that original language.

And so it unlocks again unlocks that huge cognitive capacity there

that we don't, you know, you take for granted here with all the bloggers

and the journalists writing about AI mode.

you forget that this now unlocks

um because Gemini is really good at translation.

No, it is I mean the multimodality,

the translation, uh its ability to

reason, we are dramatically improving tool use.

Uh like I as putting that power in the flow of

search, I I think look I'm I'm super excited with AI overviews.

We've we've seen the product has gotten much better.

we know we measure it using all kinds of user metrics.

It's obviously driven strong growth of the product

uh and you know we've been testing

AI mode you know it's now

in the hands of

millions of people and the early metrics are very encouraging.

So look I I I'm excited about this next chapter chapter of search

for people who are not thinking through or aware of this.

So there's the 10 blue links with AI overview on top

that provides a nice summarization.

You can expand it and you have sources and links now. Yep. Embedded.

Yeah, I believe at least Liz said so.

I actually didn't notice it, but there's ads in the AI overview.

Also, I don't think there's ads in AI

uh when ads in AI mode.

So now when do you think I mean it's okay

we should say that

in the '9s I remember the animated

gifts banner gifts that take you to some shady websites that have nothing to do with anything. AdSense revolutionized advertisement.

It's one of the greatest

um in in recent history

because it allows us for

free to have access to all these kinds of services.

So ads fuel a lot of really

services and at its best

it's showing you relevant ads

but also very importantly in a way that's not super annoying. Mhm. Right.

In a classy way.

uh when do you think it's possible to add ads into AI mode

and what does that look like from a classy non-anoying perspective? Two things.

early part of AI mode

uh will obviously focus more on the organic experience to make sure we are getting it right.

I think the fundamental

value of ads are

it enables access to

deploy the services to billions of people.

The second is ads are the reason

we've always taken ads

seriously is we view ads as commercial information but it's still information

and so we bring the same quality metrics to it.

I think with AI mode to our earlier conversation

about I think AI itself will help

us over time figure out

you know the best way to do it.

I I think given we giving context around

everything we I think it'll give us more opportunities

to also explain okay here's some commercial information

like today as a podcaster

you do it at

certain spots and you probably figure out what's best in your podcast.

Um I I think so there are aspects of that but I think you

know I think the underlying

need of people value commercial

information businesses are trying to connect to users

all that doesn't change

in a AI moment

but look we will rethink it you've seen us in YouTube now do a

mixture of subscription and

ads like obviously you know we we are now introducing

subscription offerings uh across

everything and so as part of that

we can optim the optimization

point will end up being a different place as well.

Do you see a trajectory in the possible future where AI mode

completely replaces the 10 blue links plus AI overview?

Our current plan is AI mode is going to be there as a separate

tab for people who really want to experience that

but it's not yet at the

level where our main search page is

but as features work we'll keep migrating

it to the main

page and so you can view it as a continuum

AI mode will offer you the bleeding edge

experience but it'll work will keep

overflowing to AI overviews

and the main main experience and the idea That AI mode will still take

you to the web to the human created web.

Yes, that's going to be a core design principle for us.

So really, if users decide,

right, they drive this.

Yeah, it's just exciting, a little bit scary

that it might change

internet because you Google

has been dominating with a very specific

look and idea of what it means to have the

internet and to as you move to AI mode.

I mean, I it's just a different experience.

Um, I think Liz was talking about I think you've mentioned that

you ask more questions,

you ask longer questions,

dramatically different types of questions. Yeah.

Like it actually fuels curiosity.

Like I think it's

for me, I've been asking just a

much larger number of questions

of this blackbox machine, let's say, whatever it is.

and and with AI overview, it's interesting like I because I still value the

human I still ultimately want to end up

on the human created

web but I like you said the context really helps

it helps us deliver higher

quality referrals right you know where people are like

they have much higher likelihood of finding what they're looking for

they're exploring they're curious

their intent is getting satisfied

more so all that's what all our metrics

It makes the humans that create the web nervous.

The journalists are getting nervous.

They've already been nervous.

Like we mentioned, CNN is nervous because of podcasts.

Um, it makes people nervous.

Look, I I I think news and

journalism will play an important

role, you know, in the future.

Uh, we're pretty committed to it, right?

And uh so I think

making sure that ecosystem

in fact I think we'll be able to differentiate

ourselves as a company

over time because of our commitment there.

So it's it's it's

something I think you know I definitely value a lot and

and as we are designing we'll continue prioritizing approaches.

I'm sure for the people who want they can have a fine-tuned

AI model that's clickbait

hit pieces uh that will replace current journalism.

Uh that's a shot of journalism, forgive me.

Uh but I I find that if you're looking for really strong criticism of

things that Gemini is very good at providing that. Oh, absolutely.

It's better than anything the

for now I mean people are concerned

that there would be bias that's introduced

that as the AI systems become more and more powerful there's incentive from sponsors

uh to roll in and try to control the

output of the AI models.