I Spent 26 Years As A Mormon Tradwife. Then I Woke Up. | Just Getting Good

It was terrifying.

Not to mention the fact that I have now been not had a job.

I graduated from college and never got a career.

I've been a stay-at-home mom.

What on earth am I going to do?

Hello everyone and welcome back to an allnew episode of Just Getting Good.

I am your host Chelsea Fagan,

founder and CEO of The Financial Diet

and Woman who loves to talk to other women in the case of Just

Getting Good Women Over 50 about quite literally anything

that they want to talk about.

And in this series, we talk a lot about the positives of aging,

more confidence and a stronger sense of self.

And one of the best things you can do to ensure

that that future version of you is the fearless woman I'm sure you're imagining

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Now, my guest today is someone who has sort of lived a life

that has now become a hugely popular part of the zeitgeist with shows like

Secret Lives of Mormon Wives

and Real Housewives of Salt Lake City.

It is fair to say

that our culture right now is nothing short of obsessed with the quote unquote

Mormon tife.

And while there is a ton of speculation around these women,

there's also a lot of quite often very over-the-top content around them,

there's not often a huge discussion into the actual financial practicalities of being a

woman in such an environment,

let alone when you happen to leave it.

My guest today is someone who did just that.

Who was a quote unquote Mormon tradife, but who is now divorced, deconstructed,

and has completely reclaimed life on her own terms for herself

and her three children.

Welcome to the show, My Philly Diva, Kim Schlag.

>> Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

I'm excited to be here.

>> Wearing an Eagles colored blazer, no less.

>> I didn't even do it on purpose.

A lot of my wardrobe is this color for that reason.

>> There you go.

Um, so I love to welcome people to our show by asking their age

and at what age they feel

that life started really getting good for them.

>> Okay.

I'm 55 and very happily so.

And I I feel like it's kind of been progressively getting better for me.

But the first kind of like real moment I can think back to was

43.

I was 43 years old.

I can It was February of my 43rd year.

And it was when I first learned how to lift weights.

And a couple weeks into it,

I walked out of the gym and I was like,

I think I might be strong.

And it just it shocked me cuz in my entire life,

I had never thought of myself as a strong person.

Not one time.

And if somebody had asked me, I'd probably be like, "No,

I think I just always felt like I don't know, like a pushover."

>> Yeah.

>> And this like being strong in the gym

and I'm thinking I'm lifting heavier

and heavier weights.

It didn't just stay confined in the gym.

And it was really like the seed

that led to all the good things

that came into my life

as I felt like I'm a brave,

competent, strong person.

And it really started then at 43.

>> And now you are a fitness trainer.

>> Yes.

Who >> over what age?

>> Uh over 40.

Okay.

Mostly I work with women over 40,

women going through the permenopause transition in menopause.

I have clients in their 60s and 70s as well.

>> And your message is just like lift heavy ladies.

Well, you know, well, lift heavy and it's never too late.

It's never too late.

>> However old you are, if you think you're too old, you're not too old.

>> I love that.

Okay, so 43, which is a very good age.

Now, um, as I alluded to in my intro,

you sort of precipitously after that went through an enormous amount of life changes.

>> Yes.

Um, so first of all,

before we get into everything that sort of happened after that,

can you walk us through um,

we were discussing a little bit before we started filming that you um,

started that your family started practicing Mormonism

when you were about 8 years old >>

and then take us through

that all the way up through getting married,

having these children, and sort of being that very traditional Mormon wife.

Yeah.

So, I was six

when my mom had a friend who was Mormon

and we started attending church with them.

And my mom was what you probably call a seeker.

Like she was a she was a a cradle Catholic,

but she had a lot of questions about religion

and was started asking this woman.

And so we started attending the Mormon church with them.

And my entire childhood was filled with Mormon missionaries

because my mom and my older brother

and I joined when I was eight,

but my dad didn't join until I was 15.

And then my younger brother and sister joined when they were of age.

You have to be eight to be baptized.

And so my entire childhood, these missionaries kept coming to talk to my dad.

And so I was very um into this like missionary constantly being taught about

the Mormon church.

And we were really I I'm the most Mormon person you would have ever

met.

Um Mormons when you're younger,

uh you go to church 10 hours a week

as a teenager because you go to church for an hour every morning in

what's called seminary. don't think about becoming a priest.

But it is I mean you go

and you study the scriptures

and so you go to church for three hours every Sunday.

We have since in I don't know why I say I still say we

about Mormons.

I can't not say we even though I'm not Mormon anymore.

We used to have three-hour church.

In the last couple of years it's gone to two,

but every Sunday it was three hours.

An hour Monday through Friday and then Wednesday nights for two hours.

So I was going to church 10 hours a week all through my teenage

years.

Um, and so when I say

that like it was Mormonism is who I was.

Like it was my whole personality,

it that's what we're taught like you should go out into the world

as this like bright shining light of Mormonism.

Um, it permeated every area of my life.

And um, I served a Mormon mission.

I was there for 18 months.

Um, I went to Prague.

Um, so I served in Prague and Bratosava, Slovakia and Pzen.

Um, so I learned to speak Czech and Slovak.

>> Wow.

>> And um, taught everyone about Mormonism for 18 months.

Um, yeah.

And then I met my husband and got married in a Mormon temple.

>> How old were you when you met your husband?

>> So, it sounds crazy, but I was really old for a Mormon.

Um, a lot of Mormons get married in their very young 20s.

When I was getting married, you know, I'm 55.

It was very common to get married at 19 or 20.

And so, I didn't get married till I was 28.

And so I was fielding a lot of questions in my later in my

later years about I I sometimes would not want to go to church.

I'm thinking they're going to ask me again like am I dating anybody?

Like am I getting married?

Um and so yeah I was 28.

We met when I was 26.

Um >> did you now looking back do you feel like you know now

better why you got married relatively late?

Were you was it was it something you were actively avoiding or >> Oh no.

I was trying really hard to get married.

>> Really?

Oh yeah.

I moved out to Utah after I graduated high school.

I moved to Provo, Utah.

And I was like I was raised

so >> and some people say it's changing now.

I still think the underlying current is there

that women are raised to be very well educated in Mormonism.

Like most people are well educated.

You go you get your college degree until you get married

and then you can keep getting it

if it if you don't have kids.

But the goal with the degree is not to have a career. is not

it is not to do anything other than to be able to raise your

children up really well.

And so I went out to school thinking I'm just going to hang out

here till I find a husband.

And I didn't like any of the guys I dated.

I was proposed to multiple times.

>> Wow.

>> I mean I got proposed to I got

but it's not even

that big of a deal.

It's like being asked on a date if you live in Provo, Utah.

Like I all the time people would be like, "Yeah,

like so and so just proposed."

I'm like, "That was like your third date."

Um, and I think it, as much as I wanted it,

I think it also, as and you're laughing, but I think it does,

it did freak me out a little bit.

It did.

So, there was, I think, some part of me like,

is this really what I want?

But also like, >> no, I want to marry you.

Like, we just met.

And so, I didn't I left Provo, Utah years later unmarried,

and that's when I decided to go on a mission.

Um, so I went on a mission at 25 >>

and um came back from my mission with the again the goal of like

I need to I need to meet a nice Mormon boy

and get married.

>> And what made you decide

that your husband was the one you wanted to settle down with?

>> Okay, it does.

Everything I say sometimes

when I look back I'm thinking it sounds cuckoo out of outside of my

Mormon brain now that I can look

and see it.

He was a returned missionary, which if you're a good Mormon girl,

he has to be a returned missionary.

Um, he was going to he was getting a good job.

He was in graduate he was going to graduate school.

Um, and he was an active Mormon and he was there.

And that's kind of how it like you it's kind of like

if you go to the grocery store

and you're hungry and you need something like here are your choices.

So, you pick one >> and that really is what it is like.

So, I was going to what's called a singles ward.

Um, and so all the young Mormons who are from like 18 to 30

would go to church there.

And the whole goal was besides going to church is to like meet other

Mormons to marry.

And so those were my picks.

>> Wow.

>> And you know, we got along and we laughed.

And >> were you attracted to him?

>> Uh, yes.

Yes.

I will say >> not a ringing endorsement.

>> Well, my story gets really complicated later on, but I will say this.

I I He was different than other boys I had dated

because I always kind of I always kind of went for like

as as as rebel

as you can be for a Moret,

I always kind of went for more of like the bad guy.

I always had like a little bit of long hair

and my now ex-husband was a scientist.

He was a nerd, but I was like, "This is a good idea."

Like all the other guys you've dated have been kind of lame in the

end.

So like let's go for this really stable like nerdy guy.

And so yeah, so I was um

and I think I was also really attracted to this idea of stability

and not chaos.

>> You know what's interesting?

We So I think both between the financial world and the media world,

there are a lot of ex- Mormon women.

I that we have some on our staff.

I have like weirdly multiple friends of mine in the past year have like

just randomly lore dropped

that they're ex Mormon.

Kind of a ways into us knowing each other.

>> Big in the online fitness space too.

It's also in the fitness like there are just

and one thing that I feel like I have gotten >> feel like I

understand from these women is

that and correct me

if I'm wrong here

but it seems like Mormonism specifically

as it brings up women sort of simultaneously gives them all the tools to

be incredibly discerning,

self-reliant, independent actors and yet puts them in a paradigm where they are essentially

submitting and um giving up a lot of

that discernment and it seems like a very sort of untenable tension

that a lot of women

then go through.

>> Absolutely.

Absolutely.

In the Mormon church,

um women are are put on a pedestal >> and given no power.

And so you're constantly told in in church, whatever level of the church,

how important you are

and how amazing women are

and how like special you are.

But then you were given zero authority to actually use this specialness to make

much happen except in your own home like

as a mom.

Yes.

As a leader over other women to a point until the man over you

was like I don't like

that idea.

And so I was the leader of many of the organizations in the church

for the children for the young girls for for the women.

Um, and if you had a male leader,

your local congregation would be a bishop who, you know,

liked your ideas and things and was on board with what you wanted,

you're good to go.

But if somebody said no, they say no.

Like the buck never stopped with me ever.

And even in your own home, it's set up the same way.

Like you're under the direction of your priesthood leader, which is your husband.

So if you luck out, you're good to go.

>> Yeah. if you look out

and I'm sure listen I'm sure there are couples who by luck just happen

to have wonderful relationships

that end up but I feel like you're fighting really hard upstream to keep

it in any way equitable.

>> Absolutely.

Absolutely.

It is really hard coming from the foundation of I answered to my husband.

Um >> yeah, it is a really it's really hard to make it feel

feel equal and Mormon families look super super happy

and there are so many happy Mormons.

And I'm not trying to say there's not,

but I will tell you after I got divorced, I sat at the table.

I don't even know how it happened.

My kids and I sat there one day,

talking about all the Mormon families we knew

and ticking off like they're not happy,

they're not happy.

And my son is like, "Well, what about this person?"

And my other kid was like,

"When is the last time you have ever seen

that couple in a room together?

If there's a party, he's in one room, too.

They do not interact."

And I was like, "That is a really good point."

Like there are a lot of Mormon families, they're just not happy.

The couples are not happy

because of the structure. like we're set up in a way

that it's really hard to succeed.

>> Now, when we spoke uh in our sort of intro call,

you had mentioned off the bat

that your marriage was kind of not a good one from the get-go.

>> Exactly.

>> Um can you talk a little bit about how soon uh between getting

married and sort of realizing

that things were not great,

how like what was that timeline?

So, it took hindsight for me to really understand that, okay?

Because I just kept thinking, so in my first year,

things were tense from the very beginning,

but we got married and we moved from the Philly area to St.

Louis for my husband to go to graduate school.

And I, you know,

there were a lot of other girls who were going to church with us.

Their husbands were also there.

They were mostly younger than me because they were like, they just got married.

They were 19.

I was, you know, 28.

But they told me like, yeah, like the first year marriage is hard.

They kept saying the same thing, right?

So, like first year marriage is hard.

And so in my mind I'm like the first year marriage is hard.

Like we just moved across country.

I'm away from my family.

We're getting to know each other.

You know in in Mormonism you don't have sex before marriage.

So that's a whole new thing.

So there's just a lot of new

and I kept thinking like that's all it is.

It's just year one like it'll get better.

And then you know I had a miscarriage

and then I got pregnant

and then our baby had collic

and then we you know we had some tension.

We ended up moving back.

He decided not to get his PhD.

We end up moving back across the country

and then I had another baby

and then you know he went back to get another graduate.

So there was always a reason

when things were going to slow down

and there wasn't going to be

as much stress and we were going to be able to be happy.

And it wasn't until my third child,

my last child was past three

that I one day looked around

and I was like there's no more.

I don't think it's going to happen.

I don't think I don't think it ever was those things.

I don't think it was just the tension of all of these things. we're

just we're just not happy.

>> So, you were sort of like taking what was like pretty deep incompatibility

and sort of blaming it on the the circumstance.

>> It was Yeah, there was a lot of toxicity

and I just kept thinking it's just the stress.

It's the stress of this, this, this, and this.

And it's going to calm down

and get better when >>

and it wasn't and it wasn't until,

you know, my daughter's three and I'm how many years into my marriage?

Eight, nine years into my marriage at that point.

And I was like, "Oh, oh, this is not going to get better."

And and I I was in you.

People get divorced in Mormonism.

They do get divorced in the Mormon church.

It is very hard to get a divorce in the Mormon church in your

own brain because it is such a serious thing.

It is such a serious thing.

It means basically you're putting your eternal salvation on the line

and that of your children.

>> Um that is >> And that of your children.

>> Oh yeah.

Because they're sealed to you in this covenant with your spouse.

Okay.

And so if I get divorced, I'm losing that with my kids.

Like I won't it's there's a lot of it's this kind of fear.

The the words in that they use are families can be together forever.

It said like that families can be together.

It's such a great message.

We'll be together forever.

But the really important word there is can

because it can sound like families can be together forever

but also families can be together forever.

And if you're not going to be tow the line,

you're not going to be.

And so I had this moment of if I get divorced,

like I will lose my children in the afterlife,

which is such a deeply like Mormonism is really about the afterlife.

And so it was terrifying.

Not to mention the fact that I have now been not had a job.

I graduated college and never got a career.

I've been a stay-at-home mom.

What on earth am I gonna do?

>> Right?

And so I made a decision over time

that I was going to be happy in spite of my marriage.

And that is what I did.

>> So there was a long time where you were sort of resigned to, okay,

I'm going to stay in the marriage, but I'll just find my happiness.

>> And that's what I did.

Okay.

>> And it was a really long time.

I mean, we were married 26 years

and I was like 9 years in

when I made that decision.

And what happened?

I got happier.

And the happier I got, the worse my marriage got.

>> And so we went started marriage counseling.

I went to so many rounds of marriage counseling.

And we just, you know,

we would have periods of calm and periods of not calm, but never happy.

But the more, you know, self- assure I was, the um, you know,

I started a business, just the better my life was going in other ways,

the worse my marriage became.

So, I have a few practical questions in terms of So,

I'm I assume that in a Mormon marriage, there's no contraception.

Really?

>> No, there is.

>> There is.

You can absolutely use birth control.

>> A leg up on the Catholics.

Um Oh, yeah.

Crazy.

>> Yeah.

>> Get it together, Catholics.

Um, okay.

So, there is an element of family planning.

>> Yes, absolutely.

>> But you had your first child quite soon into the marriage.

>> Yes. because I mean I I was 30

and so if I wanted to have a couple

if I want to have a couple of kids at this point I'm like

way behind and I'm thinking

if I want to have a couple of kids I better get started

and so yeah so >> meanwhile

if you had been in New York they would have been like slow down

>> slow down yeah >> um okay

so you wanted to have your your kids soon

and now did you feel

because obviously you had the three children in the context of a marriage

that was not and had never been good >> do you feel like you

were like I want these kids irrespective of my not great marriage.

>> I was still in

that period of not realizing

that the marriage wasn't getting better.

Like I really was under the illusion it was circumstantial.

Like I didn't hate my husband.

>> I was just like this is not good.

Like >> at that point I like I I sensed

that like my husband just didn't really like me

that much.

But I really just thought it was he was like stressed.

And it wasn't until later much later on I was like man this dude

hates me. like and

that was way way longer into the marriage.

But so I just kept thinking like I can do better.

Like I can be a better wife.

I can I can do better at this.

I can be I can I can do this.

>> So what So you you ended up um leaving the marriage at I

guess 50 >> 50.

So I'm 554.

I was 53 when we separated.

>> Okay.

So recently.

>> Oh yeah.

We just got we just my divorce was fin.

So it hasn't even been a year.

Uh May 5th it will be here.

Cinco de Mayo was the >> You You better celebrate.

Yes, I will.

>> Take yourself out fabulous.

But so, okay, so you were I mean it's it sounds like for quite

some time you had made some kind of peace with the idea

that like my marriage isn't good

but the rest of my life will be

and so on.

What then was like actually at 53 I'm not willing to do this anymore.

I'm leaving.

>> So I will say my husband's the one who started the process.

Um, and I think it was it coincided with my our youngest going to

college.

And so clearly he wasn't happy with all of this as well.

Um, and he was a Mormon bishop.

Like you just don't how often get a divorce when you're a Mormon bishop.

It's not this just doesn't really happen.

>> He's a scientist as well.

>> Uh, yes.

Yeah.

So he he was he studied chemistry um

and neurobiology and then he um worked in the he's worked he works in

the pharmaceutical industry >>

but is also a bishop.

>> Yes.

So Mormon um leadership is all lay leadership except for the very top.

And so you it's a it's really a second full-time job.

So if you are the bishop of a congregation,

which my husband was for a good long time,

>> you are literally in charge of these 200 people just like

if you were an actual pastor who that's their full-time job,

but then you're also in the pharmaceutical industry

or you're a plumber

or you're a doctor.

Like you do both of those things.

This is, by the way,

why I I feel one of the main reasons why American culture is

so fascinated by Mormons is just

because of the sheer level of like productivity

and industriousness.

It's unbelievable.

>> We are nothing if not productive.

>> It's like everyone's on Shark Tank.

>> It is a really it's a very high demand religion.

Like you are you are working hard.

You are working hard in because the the whole congregation runs on volunteer labor.

But so, okay, so he was like he started the divorce process.

>> He did.

So he had over the years a handful of times like

and I say threatened

because I knew he it was not real

that he was going to divorce me.

It would always be like it was like a fear tactic like he knew

I was like kind of stuck like what am I going to do?

How am I supporting me and the kids?

And you would always kind of say in a way like >> to get

me in line,

right?

And it had happened a handful of times

that he had said this

and I was I was like sorry you're not doing

that cuz you're not screwing.

At this point, I'm, you know, in my 40s and thinking, what am I,

how am I supporting everybody?

Like, we're not doing that.

And, um, this time he did it.

Um, and I didn't say no.

And, uh, that's really how it happened.

We were on a trip.

We were actually in Paris in front of the Eiffel Tower of all places.

I know.

>> The opposite of love.

>> I know.

And, um, you know,

we often had like really >> when you have an unhappy marriage,

vacations and holidays are often some of the worst times.

and the I don't even know you know what the beginning he had been

he'd been giving me this silent treatment for a couple of days on this

trip and then um just yelled at me in front of the Eiffel Tower.

I'm divorcing you the minute we get home.

And it was the first time he had ever said it to me

that I didn't say like like hell you're not.

I didn't because usually I'd be like no.

And I just I kind of snapped I think

and I was like well you're not taking my dogs

and you're not taking my money.

And um we went home

and a week later we were sitting in front of a mediator

and we were separated a month later

and it was really

because I just I didn't say no.

I didn't say no.

>> What can I ask what what made him snap at you

that in that moment?

Do you remember?

>> I don't I'm probably one of the only people whose divorce started

because of Taylor Swift in the Aerys tour um two nights before.

Maybe maybe it's more.

We'd been in London.

That's why we were in Europe at all.

We'd been at the Aerys tour with my daughter

and my brother and we'd had such a lovely day

and trying to get out of Wembley Stadium is crazy after a concert

and like it was hours till we get on the tube

and hours till we're back at our hotel.

>> And he got really angry

that I didn't want to like go right to sleep,

but we had to leave early in the morning.

So, I was wide awake.

So, I'm wearing my purple sparkly dress and I'm packing up my bags.

And he just was really like started was mad

that I didn't want to go to sleep.

He wanted the light off.

and we got in this really big argument

and you know he said terrible things

and then he just stopped talking to me like he wouldn't talk to me

for days and then I don't know what it was

that was what that was what set him off was

that and then 48 hours later was

when he was like I'm divorcing you

so I don't I don't know there was something there was something

but I don't remember what it was something little you know something

that could have been like I I can't even I can't even remember.

Do you look back on moments like

that and and view them

as emotionally abusive?

>> Oh yeah.

I mean that's definitely the word like in therapy I use.

It's not it's not a word I throw around a lot >> in public

I guess.

Um one it does feel somewhat embarrassing >> to you.

>> To me like it feels like a little bit embarrassing like

that I stayed this long

that I put up with this kind of treatment.

Like I do it.

It was definitely emotionally abusive.

It was an emotionally abusive relationship.

>> I ask because I I think there are probably a lot of women

watching who >> are in similar dynamics

and don't necessarily because I listen to

that and that sounds emotionally abusive to me.

Um, but I also think

that because a lot of things

that are sort of exist on this borderline

and there's a level of,

you know, subjectivity and plausible deniability

that I think a lot of women >> can go years,

decades being in a situation where they are being treated um,

at minimum in a in a very cruel way.

>> Yeah.

>> But they won't put language to it. they won't kind of imagine understand

it for what it is.

So I guess >> do you feel

because even in that moment he was the one who's who put divorce on

the table.

>> Yeah.

>> It was not you.

>> It was not me.

>> Do you think that if he hadn't that you would have left?

>> I I I've had this conversation

so many times with my girlfriends

and I'm like because I'm

so happy.

I was so happy like

when we actually separated even before I knew I was going to be financially

stable.

I was like I'm just going to figure this out. um you know in

that interimm of trying to figure out what's going to happen

and I was like it's just going to be better.

It's going to be better

and like if I have to live in a one-bedroom apartment in this scary

part of some town I will figure this out.

Um and I've just had

so much peace but it kind of haunted me for a

while thinking like would I have just stayed indefinitely

if he hadn't have said I'm going to do it.

But what I come back to is

that you know he did what he usually does

which is eventually a couple days later he's like well

if you think you can love me we don't have to go through with

this.

Um, and I said, "No, I we're doing the right thing."

And so part of me is like I was ready to just brave it.

And so I kind of come back to

that like I did have a chance to get out of it

and I didn't do it.

And I sure hope I would have eventually done it.

I don't I don't know why I I wasn't ready to be the one

to say those words.

I don't know.

Part of it still comes back to this whole fear with the church like,

>> "Yeah, >> it's a big deal.

It's a big deal.

And you mentioned on our introduction call

that now I guess you're a year out of divorce almost.

Um that he is in a new relationship with a man.

>> Yes.

And that was very startling.

Um so we separated in August of 2024.

>> Mhm.

>> And I found out in August I was told in August 2025 my

best friend is the one who came to tell me um

and she told me she had news

and I was like you're not moving are you?

Cuz I could hear it was serious.

She's like, "No, it's news about you."

And I was like, "I I don't even know what that means."

Like, "I don't know.

What do you mean?"

And so, she was the one um who told me he started dating men

2 weeks after we separated.

Like, he was on and I knew he was on dating apps.

I had had to use his phone

when my daughter went to college to get her to do something.

And I saw like the notifications pop up for Silver Singles

and I was like,

I could care less.

Like, go have at it.

But in my wildest dreams,

would have never guessed it was to date men.

but he started dating men um right after we split

and had a serious boyfriend

and has stayed with him

and they've been together over a year at this point.

Um and when I found out in August of last year,

uh I was incredibly angry.

I screamed at the top of my lungs for weeks

because I just because of how hard our marriage had been

and because I kept trying

and looking back and knowing

that all along and look >> I my brother is gay.

I have a lot of loved ones in the LGBTQ community

and I know everybody comes to

that realization on their own.

So I don't know at what point in time he was willing I don't

know when he actually knew

when he was willing to let himself know.

I have no idea.

I have a hard time believing he didn't know in the beginning of August

of 2024 and two weeks later he did.

Like I have a really hard time believing that.

Um and I believe at some point in our marriage he knew.

and that I kept trying

and thinking we're somehow going to fix this marriage.

And all along he had this little secret that no matter what I did,

like I felt cheated.

And I still do,

but I'm just kind of I've gone through a lot of therapy.

I felt like I never had a chance because of the choice he made.

And I don't I have no idea why he made that choice,

why he made the choice.

He wasn't raised Mormon.

His family wasn't Mormon, but he did come from, you know,

a really small town in the South.

And so maybe he just felt like I can't be a gay man,

so I'll join the Mormon church.

I don't I have no idea.

>> Oh, he joined.

>> He joined he joined as in his he was 19.

So I don't I have no idea

because he to this day has never told me.

He didn't think I needed to know

that he was gay

because he said we weren't married anymore,

so it wasn't any of my business.

And my best friend was like, "Well, somebody's telling her."

Um and so she is the one who told me.

And I I don't know his thought process.

And I believe everybody gets to be happy

and so I'm he should go

and be happy.

And I do think, you know,

the real problem is like what about society made him not be able to

just live as a gay man

and how different his life could have been

and my life could have been

if he could have just lived

as a gay man

and left me out of it.

But instead, I spent 26 years unhappily married to somebody who I was never

ever going to be able to make happy.

and my feeling,

like I said, I knew early on like he >> I just couldn't seem

to make him happy.

Like whatever I did, he didn't seem to like it.

And so in one way, I was just furious, but in another way,

it's like my whole life made sense.

Like that little bit of information

that I I would have bet you a million dollars

if anybody had said,

"Do you think he's gay?"

I would have been like, "Absolutely not."

And then with that information, I was like, "Oh,

there were signs all the way from when we were dating."

Like I could see it.

I could see it like crystal clear.

And um then it just felt like, okay, I wasn't crazy.

I wasn't crazy.

Like these things now make sense.

All of these things

that I now see was the fact

that he was fighting his sexuality.

I thought I chocked up to like the awkwardness of, you know,

being um raised for me raised

and for him for several years like in Mormonism like sex is bad,

sex is bad, sex is bad.

Now you're married, go have sex.

Like so I thought

that was a piece of like our weirdness with our relationship.

I thought a piece of our awareness of our relationship was the fact

that you know he had had he'd had some you know really rough things

happen as a childhood

as a child.

So I was like oh that's like his childhood trauma he needs to work

through and in the end all these things I was like oh no it

was >> and it could have been

that as well as some extent

but there's yes but there were certain things I'm thinking like he just wasn't

happy because I wasn't a man

and I was never ever going to be able to make him happy.

First of all, you are such a lovely woman

and that is so I'm

so sorry that you had to No,

but it's true.

Like that is so unfair. that's

so unfair that and it's not even like cuz sometimes the language around this

kind of situation can get very I guess problematic

and like you know it's they're in a tough place too often in a

bad situation and it's not like they stole your life

or whatever but I I do think

that the added layer of punishing someone for 26 years

because they can never be what they never were

and you knew that going in is

so cruel and so above

and beyond even.

You know, a very good friend of mine growing up,

it was a very similar situation

and his they were older

and his father came out at at like almost 70.

Um, >> wow.

>> And it was like I have to end my life in truth.

And then his his my friend's mother had a complete nervous breakdown

and he >> within a week came back

and they lived out the rest of their lives together

as like best friends cuz he was like I can't abandon my wife.

But he was a lovely husband.

Yeah.

And so I do think

that even in scenarios where people are in a life

that is not necessarily true to themselves for a variety of reasons,

you can still treat your life partner with like love

and compassion and friendship

and all of these things

and show respect to them.

To go so far as to punish them for it,

I think is just I'm so so sorry you had to deal with that.

I also think a young man going to join the Mormon church at 19

years old speaks volumes to what they may already be battling with internally.

So I think there is common sense would dictate a strong chance

that that was something he was aware of from the beginning.

But I think what I'm most compelled by in your telling of this story

is,

you know, seeing you,

you're not even two years out from this and you're such a positive person.

And you're so sort of upward and onward.

How do you reconcile feeling what are you would be

so within your right to feel like insanely resentful

and insanely embittered and insanely just like just angry.

>> How do you reconcile those real feelings with just I I suppose framing

things in a more positive way?

>> Yeah, I think like I said I was believe me I was very

angry. like I called every friend I could

and just literally screamed into the phone for multiple weeks to kind of get

that anger out.

And in the end,

um you I've been seeing a lovely therapist for years through all of this.

And you where we came to is >> I already knew my marriage was terrible.

Now I knew more why.

But I had already gotten to a point like

when I found this news out in August,

I was so settled in like the trauma

that had been my marriage

and the beautiful life

that I had built since.

And what she helped me to see is she's like

that beautiful life you have built in the last year has not gone anywhere.

It is right here.

You have all you still have your relationship with your kids

and your friends and this lovely wonderful home you've built for yourself

and you have it all still.

And and that's kind of where I just let it go.

Like I don't want to walk around being an angry person

and I had already come to terms with the fact

that I stayed in a really unhappy marriage for a long time

and kind of moved on from

that.

And it's not like I I'm trying to be positive.

It's just I generally I have things I want to accomplish

and I have stuff to do

and I can't I can't sit around being bitter.

That's not going that's where is that going to get me?

>> You know, you say it like it's so obvious,

but I think unfortunately a lot of people end up especially post things like

an acrimonious divorce for whatever reason people can stay locked in those loops for

the rest of their lives.

>> I get Yeah, you're right.

And plenty of people are better.

And I will say I have 0% interest in ever dating again.

And maybe >> wow, >> maybe.

And I will say a lot of women my age feel that way.

So I don't even know if it's specific to my situation.

I have happily married friends who have told me outright

that they love their husbands,

but if they die first, there's no way they're getting married again.

>> Not getting married.

>> Well, but yeah.

Okay.

So, I don't want to get married.

I don't want a man in my house.

If I ever go on a date,

it's going to be

because a lovely human being just happens by my like happens to appear.

I'm not getting on a dating app.

Like, I'm just zero interested in it.

Like, >> yeah, >> I have a lot of friends

and my kids and we do fun things.

Like, I have a lot going on.

And if in doing all

that a man happens by

and we have a good time

and he's got his life really together,

maybe I would date him.

He's never living in my house.

Like, I don't really want a relationship.

I don't really like it's not even something I feel like a lack of.

Like, it's just I'm just not interested.

And sometimes I'm like, "Huh, maybe that's just because all this trauma,

but whatever it is, I just I don't feel a lack because of it."

>> Now, I must sit with my natural inclination to push back on this

because I am such a cheerleader for romantic love,

despite what some of you in the comments accuse me of.

Um, and I I don't know.

I If it's not something

that you feel is missing

or that you aspire to,

you're absolutely right to not seek it out.

But I do think obviously something we learn a lot on this show is

how much of a net negative the wrong partner is,

right?

Like the the cost of being with the wrong person is insanely high.

So it completely makes sense to opt for nothing >> in the romantic sphere

um and to and to just base your life on other things.

But a really good loving partner is such a gift

and it would be

But again,

I'm projecting my own stuff onto you.

I think it would be nice for you to meet a lovely person.

>> Yeah.

Like I said, you would have to literally like just like poof in front

of me because I just have no desire to put any effort into

that.

>> That's fair.

>> And I don't I just relationships are

so important and I have really good ones with

so many people. like I don't lack for social interaction

and uh I feel like we put such an emphasis I don't know

if it's patriarchy it's probably partly patriarchy tradition religion all these things where it's

like the brass ring is a romantic love

and I will tell you I love a good romcom I'm going to watch

them all I love them I like to read them I like to watch

them but and I aspired to it

but in the end

and I don't even think it's necessarily with what happened to me I just

think for a lot of women the more like devoted love in their life,

the more like meaningful relationships aren't necessarily their romantic partner.

It's their friends.

It's their friends.

It's their kids.

And I really feel

that like I have really deep friendships with

so many people.

My relationship with my grown children

and like that's who I want to hang out with

and I want to like plan parties

and have them come over.

Like I'm excited for those things.

And if there's some guy coming along too,

maybe someday maybe I'll be really happy about that.

But >> can I ask you

and we can you absolutely pass

if you're not comfortable,

but do you I if is sexuality also a part of that for you?

Do you feel like that's like cuz we've had women on the show who

are like I'm not I'm never getting married again,

but I see I'll see men.

Um do you feel like even casual dating or any nothing?

>> Zero interest in it.

Okay.

>> And again, I think it's part of being in menopause.

Like not everybody, I mean, everybody is different,

but a lot of women in menopause, like interest in sex is just like,

and if you have a partner, that can be a really big problem.

Yeah.

>> It can be a really big problem.

But for people who don't, it's kind of like that's fine.

Like, I'm not interested.

And I know that for some people might be like, that's terrible.

But again, I just I don't feel a lack because of it.

>> I don't.

>> Listen, I'm going to say two things about that.

I bet your life is easier.

And I bet you're it's it's less expensive and less headache.

No, I'm I I do think

that it's >> I think often

when we when things feel

so like additive or valuable to us,

it's so hard for us to picture other people not wanting those same things.

Um, but I totally accept that some people don't.

And we've had some of those women on this show um,

who are >> more so on the side of like I never want to date.

Definitely don't want a man in my house,

but like they like to go out and, you know,

they have like let's say a small roster of men that they'll see.

Uh, but it doesn't go beyond that.

>> I have friends who encouraged me.

They're like, "It'd be so fun."

And I was like, "We have really different definitions of fun."

>> I was like, "I don't want to do any of that."

He's like, "You want to just come over

and I'll make you a steak

and we can like have a good chat?

Like that sounds fun.

Do I want to go out

and meet some random guy

and have sex with him?

That is not on my list of fun."

>> Yes.

I definitely not wanting to live with a man that's very powerful

because they like it's few

and far the straight men

that are additive to a domestic situation.

>> That's the other thing.

And I have to say like just realistically like

if I was going to be like

because some of my friends have made me think about this

and I was like okay I want you to find men for me my

age who are going to add to my life add to my peace.

What are they going to bring to me if they're single?

>> Why are they single?

>> Yeah.

>> Why are they single?

>> If I mean I mean they would he would literally have to just

have great relationships with other humans in his life.

He'd have to have his own friends

and his own interest

and his own money.

Where are these men?

Like I don't I don't know any of them.

>> Yeah.

I mean, listen, mo I would say we're probably now at like what 50%

of the women we've had on this show who are like actively in the

dating market right now.

>> About maybe more because yeah,

this um and I >> a lot of them like speak very highly of

the men.

I the other day, yesterday,

I interviewed a woman who was widowed very unexpectedly

and she um uh about a year after he passed had a year-long relationship

with another man that she really loved

and now is like actively dating again.

And she speaks highly of them.

So, I assume they must be She's in Canada, though.

Maybe the dating pool is better in Canada.

>> Maybe.

Maybe.

My I will say one of my best friends just got married to a

Canadian last.

So, >> that's the title of this episode.

Only date Canadian.

>> Only date Canadians.

I'll have to ask him

if he has any friends he wants me to meet.

>> Um, okay.

So, I do want to get into the deconstruction

because I know that was a big part of this

as well,

but >> I do specifically want to talk first about the finances of So,

just so I can make sure I'm tracking the timeline correctly.

>> You for the first part of your marriage did not work.

>> Yes.

I didn't work until I was 40 45.

>> Okay.

So, then for the last eight years of your marriage,

you were working as a fitness coach.

Yes.

>> So then you were bringing in your own >> I was um my

husband made so much money in pharmaceutical like he made a lot of money

and so I didn't even realize till I was sitting in front of the

mediator getting divorced that the amount of money I was bringing in was actually

a decent amount of money.

I thought it was like not enough to even live on

because I it's nothing compared to what my husband made.

>> Um and so I didn't realize like

that oh I would have been I could have been fine.

I really I didn't even go into this trying to have a career.

I had made a big transformation like publicly at my local YMCA.

Like so I had obesity and I kept losing and gaining the same weight,

losing and gaining the same weight.

And then um kind of lost a lot of it by the time I

was 40,

but was still up like 30 lbs.

And over the course of several months, I lost all that weight,

got really strong.

And all these women are like, "What did you do?"

And so I started helping them just, you know, it was fun.

I liked it.

And people kept saying like,

"You should do this as a job. you should do this as a job.

And I was like, well, I don't have one of those,

so maybe maybe I'll do that.

And my kids were, you know, all in school at this point.

And so, I got certified as a nutrition coach.

I got certified as a personal trainer.

And I put just an little post up on my neighborhood Facebook page

and I was like,

"Hey, I've got a gym in my basement.

Anyone who wants to come, um, I'd love to be your coach."

And before I knew it,

I had a full roster of women coming to my house.

And like I was just like, it was a lot.

And then I decided I wanted to compete in powerlifting, which is squat, bench,

deadlift.

And so I hired a a virtual trainer, like an online trainer, um,

great guy.

And he was coaching me in powerlifting.

And soon, a couple months after I hired him,

like he took off on Instagram, like exploded.

Oh wow.

Like coaching gen pop people.

Um, and it was in the era of Instagram with like infographics making like

these really useful like picture things.

And so I was watching him

and one day I said to him I was like hey

if I wanted to do what you do like how would I do

that because you're really helping a lot of people like I could read his

comments and he's just helping.

And so he's like well you should post every day twice today

and it has to be helpful.

Can't be about you.

Not going to be about like your red pickup truck.

You can always use that as an example.

He's like postpost something helpful.

They get to the end of the post and they know something to do.

And so I did.

I did it.

I did not miss for two years. twice a day,

every day I post on Instagram.

And before I knew it,

like I had 10,000 followers

and then 30 thou

and I just and

then I started having clients all over the world.

And like I don't want to say I happened into it

because I'm really freaking good at what I do.

But I didn't set out to do this.

Like I just I liked it so much.

I was really passionate about it.

And the more women I helped, the more passionate I became during this time.

I also entered perry menopause

and talked about it really publicly like on my Instagram.

And that's how I ended up coaching women over 40

because they they reached out to me

because like they saw me doing it

and they're like,

"Oh, like I want to work with somebody my age.

I don't want to, you know, work with the young guy."

And so, yeah.

So, I built this business um starting when I was 45.

And now I have clients all over the world

and I have multiple arms in my business.

I have one-on-one coaching

and I have group coaching

and I have challenges.

And I'm really glad I did

because I don't know what I would have done to support myself otherwise.

Couple things.

One, uh, with regards to the menopause part of it,

do you do hormone replacement therapy?

>> Me personally, do I use it?

I do.

Okay.

>> It's been, it's been a lifesaver for me.

I started when I was 48,

so it's I've been on it a long time.

>> I imagine this is something you talk about a lot with your clients.

>> Absolutely.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Because it can like the symptoms of menopause can really impact somebody's fitness status

because >> if you're feeling like garbage,

you're not going to go out for a walk

and lift some weights

and eat healthy,

right?

You're gonna you're not going to do that.

And so, yeah.

So, do you find like did you did you have a period of where

you were still doing your sort of fitness regimen before you did the HRT?

>> Oh, yeah.

So, I was in really great shape like

when I by the time I was 48,

I was in tip-top shape

when I and that's

when I started hormone therapy.

>> Okay.

>> And so, yeah.

And >> and you noticed a big difference in terms of >> Well, yeah,

because luckily by the time I started really feeling the symptoms of like night

sweats and hot flashes,

I was in really good shape.

So I I was able to keep kind of to keep up with that,

but I definitely it was suffering like I wasn't sleeping be

when they first started until I got to a doctor

and got on the menopause hormone therapy.

Uh you know those couple of months I I was not sleeping literally it

was like having an infant again

because I was up 12 14 times a night just covered in sweat

and so it was very intense

but once I started the menopause hormone therapy like it's been great

and so I mean I was absolute life changer for me.

>> Love it.

Um, okay.

So, by the time you were getting divorced,

you had already Do you mind sharing roughly how much you were making a

year through your business at

that time?

>> So, um, at my peak time,

I was making like I was making like $120,000.

>> Nice.

>> I had purposely I right in the years right before we got divorced

changed my roster like got things down

because I was like,

"My kids are like leaving. my daughter, my youngest,

is going to graduate

and I'm working 80 hours a week

because I it was just

and so I had really cut back.

So I was only making like4 $50,000 a year.

Um and then the year I you know

when I when I separated I was back up to 80,000

and this last year I made 125.

>> So yeah.

>> Okay.

So but wait so I assume you didn't have a prenup.

>> Oh no, we didn't have it.

We owned nothing.

>> Well but if he was making all that money >> Well,

he was the one we met.

He hadn't even started graduate school when we met.

>> No, but I'm saying like by the time you got divorced,

you should have gotten a pretty decent >> Oh, I did.

Okay.

Thank God.

>> And I fought really hard for that.

I That was my very first like big thing

that I did for my finances

that I like knowingly did was

when I decided I was getting this divorce,

I was like, I am going to make this my full-time job between now

and when we get this thing,

the divorce, and I am going to come out of this getting what I

owed because I'm thinking I put this man through two degrees.

Like the first one I was working, the second I was raising his kids.

He got to travel all over the world raising, you know,

through the ranks of his company because I was at home with these children.

And I am going to I'm going to fight for what what I what

I am owed.

And I did.

I I got a course

that I did over like days about how to negotiate like actually like negotiation

skills.

And you know, I got we were going to do a mediator,

but I got a friend to like recommend like a really good lawyer.

So I could I didn't know what I didn't know what my rights were.

I didn't know like what percentage of the assets could I what's the max

what's the minimum so like I did

that I really didn't sleep for like six weeks

as I was figuring this out you I got

that I got my friend who's a real estate agent to take

and talk to me about my house

or buying a house I got a mortgage broker to talk to me like

I had this like I got a financial planner

and like we like worked through all the possible scenarios

so that when I went into this mediation like I was like locked

and loaded and ready to go

and I came out of it in really good shape.

Was he a decent person to divorce

or was he >> um I'd say he was he was okay.

We we'd had a front row seat for a really terrible divorce of our

good friends.

Like it was bad.

Like a drug out for eight years.

They were hundreds of thousands of they were very wealthy.

He was a doctor.

And so like >> eight years.

Yeah. because well the husband was purposely trying to like break the wife

and um and so we had both watched this

and knew how much money you could spend on a divorce

if you did it

that way.

So he did have that in his mind.

But he said to me right before we started negotiations, he said to me,

I will what was the words he used?

I will be fair, but I will not be generous.

And I walked away

because I thought that's really funny

that you think that that's an option.

And in his mind,

he thought he was going to get give me 50% of things maybe.

And in my mind, like from meeting with this lawyer, I was like,

that's not what's going to happen here.

Like I'm asking for 65.

And I got 60.

I got 60% of all the assets.

And I got like I fought really hard.

Like I did not >>

and I think he was just kind of ready to be done.

And so yeah, so I got five years of alimony at the rate I

wanted. and got my 60%

and I was >> Did you keep the house?

>> I bought him out of the house.

Hell yeah.

>> He did not want me to.

He wanted to uh he wanted neither of us to get the house

and the mediator was like

if you don't want it

and she can afford it,

she can have it.

And so I did keep the house

and I just recently decided it's a great house

and I love it.

But I am one human being who lives alone in a five-bedroom house.

And I walk around and I'm paying so much money to heat and cool.

And I finally have just decided um I'm gonna start looking for like a

really cute place that's going to be just

as great but smaller.

Um but I wanted to do that on my terms.

I didn't want to like suddenly I'm getting divorced

and now I'm out of my house

and I wanted to be able to to figure

that out on my own.

>> Are you going to go into Philly proper do you think?

>> No.

I actually really My town is super cute.

It's I'm in a town called Phoenixville

and it's always on the list of like best towns in Pennsylvania.

It's like a really like um I don't know 15 years ago it was

kind of like yucky

and now it's like got this nice main street with all these like clubs

and bars.

Not clubs but like bars

and restaurants and shopping

and so I'm going to move into like the walkable part of my city

and like live on like a cute treeine street where I can walk to

the main street kind of.

>> Okay.

So you got out of the marriage uh with you know what you were

owed um and you had already started sort of putting the pieces in place

to have a career afterward.

Well, before >> Oh, yeah.

>> Um, now I imagine is

that a rarity amongst women in the Mormon community for them to have their

own streams of income like

that?

>> Yeah.

I mean, it's there's plenty of Mormon women who work.

So, I don't want to make it sound like

that never happens because there are,

but it's not the norm at least for I mean,

we are encouraged to stay home with our children.

>> That is what is expected.

That is what we are told.

When I was a teenager,

like a Mormon famous like speech was given

and it was called Mothers Come Home.

And the prophet of the church basically said, "If you are a working woman,

you need to go home.

You need to quit your job.

You need to be home with those kids."

And that's how I was raised.

And the women of my generation did not pursue careers.

You could be a piano teacher.

You could maybe be a nurse.

You could >> maybe you could you could go back.

You could maybe go back to it if you needed to.

>> You shouldn't be there.

You could.

There's kind of like this like Yeah, you could you could be a teacher,

but probably not a practicing one because then you'd be at school all day.

I mean, until your kids are once your kids are older.

Yeah.

>> And somebody's going to like listen to this and be like, "She's lying."

We Because there's there's no rule that says that.

But I'm just telling you what the culture is like.

>> And I do feel like it's starting to change a little tiny bit.

Like a little tiny bit.

The church I still follow Mormonism.

I can't quite It was so much of who I am.

So I still like I still follow things about it.

And on the church's official Instagram account very recently,

there was a post about a woman who's going to be a doctor

and her husband stays home with the kids.

And this was on the official

and the comment section was wild

because there are members of the church who are like,

"What is this?

Why would they be saying this?"

And other, you know, more progressive members are like, "This is great."

But it shocked me.

Like that is new that the church would ever >> that.

>> And I think it's a PR thing.

They're kind of like, >> yeah,

>> I think that they're I think they're realizing like this is one of

the reasons that one of the reasons I left the church.

Um I've been leaving the church well before my divorce,

but I was on my way out

and it was because of my children

because my children were old enough to ask questions

that I had really terrible answers to.

Right.

>> And one of them was about women in the church.

Yeah.

>> And I'm not going to look at my daughter and be like, "Yeah,

you shouldn't have a career and >> and you shouldn't have power."

And so I think I think the girls of these day this day they're

not going to they have

so much you know

that they can do everywhere else.

So I don't know

that they're willing to be at church

and be told like you can't work

and you don't have any authority.

>> And you deconstructed pretty much s in tandem with your divorce >> before

I would say um

and that was a part of tension in our marriage.

My husband and I agreed on a lot of things like he was not

cool with the church's treatment of the LGBTQ community not shockingly um

but he which I had no idea why,

but I thought it was just because, you know,

like he's got good friends who are gay.

My brother is gay.

Like I thought, you know,

like um and so there were certain things

that he was on board with with me.

Like he also stopped paying tithing to the church in the two years before

because we realized the church had some like some big financial scandal.

So we were like in sync with some of these ways.

I was starting to like live Mormonism in my own way

when I was still married to him.

Um but it was causing friction

because he wanted to be more orthodox than I did.

Do you miss Mormonism?

>> Not anymore.

No.

Um, it's hard.

It's sometimes like it's weird

that my life is

so different and I don't regret um I had

so many good things

that came.

Like some of my best friends that are also like former Mormons.

I still have good friends who are Mormon.

And so it's hard to say like I wish I had never been.

But also I see like wow like how much of my life was vastly

different than what it would have been.

And I still have a lot of time to make up for that.

But I don't miss it.

Like I don't I don't want to be in kind of that box.

>> And my therapist warned me.

She's like, "You're going to want to find a new box

because it feels really comfy to be in a box."

>> Yeah.

>> She's like, "Do not do it."

She's like joining another church

or anything else that feels like it's in a box.

So I've, you know,

I've really stayed away from

that. like this feeling of I get to make all my own decisions.

There's no other authority above me that's like giving me these 12 rules of,

you know, how to make every decision.

>> Do you obviously not an organized one,

but do you still have a religious practice at all in your life?

I dabble in other churches

because I um I'm still um a believer in God

and Christ and I don't I I don't want a community anymore of in

religion because I was it's it was just

so tight and everybody's in your business

and it was like a big part of it

and I don't want

that.

So, but I do want a place

that I can go

and worship if I want to go

and like sing some good music.

And so, um, my daughter's boyfriend's church,

I've gone to there a good like eight

or 10 times in the past couple years.

I found another church.

So, I have a high bar for what I'd even attend a church for.

Uh, like what and but I don't want to go and like join one,

but I do want to like go when I want to go.

And so, yeah, >> it's interesting.

I think a lot of people

when they picture um

or even have been through deconstruction of a religion,

especially one as kind of all-encompassing as Mormonism,

they sort of I think often conflate

that with a rejection of God

or even of Christ in the case of Christianity.

Can you speak a little bit to the sort of emotion

and also the practicality of leaving behind religion in the more sort of formal

sense but keeping God

and Christ?

>> Yeah.

Um I think for me I was I was

so religiously not fulfilled for like the last eight years of being a Mormon.

Um which again this really upsets Mormons.

So, if Mormons are listening to this, I'm sorry, guys.

But, um, there was not a whole lot of Jesus in the Mormon church

after a while.

Like, there was culturally you could go to a church on a Sunday

and be there for hours

and nobody's talked about Jesus.

They're talking about tithing

and they're talking about what they call the covenant path

and they're talking about going to the temple.

Like, they're talking about so many things.

And like I had this like big desire.

I'm like, are we ever going to talk about being Christlike?

Like, and so I actually like one Sunday in church,

I was like googling every other church and like what they believe.

And so I had this hole in my heart of like I wanted to

be somewhere that felt more like worshipful,

like I'm singing to like singing God's praises.