0:00 Thank you all for coming tonight.
0:02 Uh shall we dive into it?
0:03 >> Let's Let's go.
0:04 Let's Let's Let's talk.
0:05 Let's chop it up as they say.
0:07 So, let's start off the top.
0:09 You are both a historic figure
0:12 and a historical actor in one of the most fraught times in American history.
0:17 And in your book A Promised Land,
0:19 you wrote about the conflict between working for change within the system
0:25 and pushing against it.
0:27 Wanting to lead, but wanting to empower people to make change for themselves.
0:32 Wanting to be in politics, but not of it.
0:37 What did that mean for you in your early career
0:40 and how has it changed?
0:41 How did it change
0:42 when you were president
0:42 and what How do you think about
0:44 that now that you're out of office?
0:45 Well, uh I I've talked about this publicly before.
0:50 Uh I was not someone uh who
0:55 as a young person said I want to be president.
1:00 Um I wanted to be a basketball player.
1:04 Uh you know, architect.
1:06 There There were a bunch of different things.
1:08 Uh politician was not on the list.
1:13 Uh The way I came into it, I was inspired uh by social movements.
1:22 Uh I was inspired by in particular the civil rights movement uh
1:24 that I had been too young to participate in.
1:28 Uh My role models were people like Bob Moses
1:31 and Diane Nash and the Freedom Riders
1:35 and uh And then you know,
1:40 after I'd started community organizing and then went back to law school,
1:44 this is a a moment when um solidarity is rising in Poland, right?
1:50 And then the Berlin Wall is coming down and Tiananmen Square is happening.
1:54 And the the the people's the people power in in the Philippines
2:00 and and and so you're seeing uh a sense of ordinary people rising up
2:05 and and taking control of their lives.
2:09 Uh and and overthrowing oppressive structures and systems.
2:13 And and so that's what excited me.
2:17 Um But what I also recognized uh um studying with smart professors like you
2:25 uh and and doing a little little reading um By the way,
2:31 for young people here, reading.
2:34 It's uh It's outstanding.
2:38 It it I you know, cat cat videos uh and and Tik Tok's great,
2:47 but every once in a
2:49 while picking up a book um What what you came to recognize is
2:59 that uh the success of the Voting Rights Act
3:01 or the Civil Rights Act was first
3:05 and foremost the courage
3:07 and tenacity of generations of freedom fighters
3:12 and the Civil Rights Movement
3:14 and Dr.
3:15 King, but it was in the end also Lyndon Johnson.
3:21 Uh As flawed and tragic a figure
3:23 as he was in a lot of ways his capacity to uh over overcome
3:33 the you know,
3:34 the constraints of his background
3:36 and and his his politics
3:39 as a Dixiecrat and
3:40 then say,
3:40 you you know what,
3:41 at this moment in history I'm going to help make this happen.
3:46 That was important, too.
3:48 Uh and and figures who aren't famous in the Justice Department who made sure
3:54 that uh the federal government weighed in on the side of equality
3:58 and freedom.
4:00 And and and that I think continues to be the recipe for change
4:05 when our democracy is working.
4:07 All right?
4:08 Um I I do believe the most important office in a democracy is is
4:15 the office of citizen.
4:18 That change happens because ordinary people get together
4:24 and reimagine what their lives could be
4:27 and push on the system.
4:30 But I also think
4:31 that you have to have people inside
4:33 that system uh that can translate those impulses into laws
4:41 and institutional practices.
4:43 Um and you know,
4:45 I've I've been on both sides of
4:47 that equation and I
4:48 and I um There've been times once I was in office where I got
4:54 pushed.
4:57 And sometimes it was annoying to me.
5:01 But it was necessary.
5:02 Uh and it was sometimes necessary for me
5:07 when I was on the outside
5:08 and I pushed to hear
5:11 that those who were working within government
5:14 or in politics uh it was important for them to be able to explain
5:20 that you're not the only uh interest group.
5:25 You're not the only constituency.
5:28 There are other equities and so we have to balance those equities.
5:31 That's part of our job.
5:34 Um And and that I think is how a healthy democracy works.
5:37 And and unfortunately, I think um both outside government
5:42 and inside government sometimes we get
5:45 so cynical.
5:48 Uh or we want um we want maximalist outcomes.
5:54 We we we want all of what we want all the time right now.
6:00 And uh and that's not how in a in a big complicated uh messy
6:09 noisy uh country like this uh our democracy is going to work.
6:14 Everybody has to figure out
6:16 that push and pull
6:18 that over time incrementally leads to uh extraordinary progress.
6:25 Can I push back on that?
6:27 >> Of course.
6:27 See, it's happening already.
6:30 I'm I'm curious in this moment in which we are currently living.
6:34 Um for a lot of people it feels
6:36 as though the people who are speaking up
6:38 and trying to change our society are not in fact being heard
6:41 and that change is coming not from outside the system
6:44 as you suggest,
6:45 but rather from within the system.
6:47 Well, well I wonder >> You were asking me about what it felt like
6:51 for me coming up.
6:53 >> Well, I did ask >> ask me about what the heck is going
6:55 on right now.
6:57 Now, that's that's a whole 'nother No, no.
7:00 No, no.
7:01 I did have >> kettle of fish.
7:03 I I did I did have how has this changed now
7:06 that you're out of office?
7:07 >> But during my during my presidency,
7:09 I didn't I didn't hear the out of office thing.
7:11 It's changed a lot in the last few years, yeah.
7:13 Well, but the but the the I agree with you actually,
7:17 but the the premise
7:19 that the way you create change in a democracy comes from below
7:21 and not from above,
7:22 I continue to think is solid.
7:24 Do you Are you rethinking that?
7:26 No, no.
7:26 I I'm not rethinking at all.
7:29 But what we're we're also witnessing is
7:34 that when the system is captured by those who uh let's say have a
7:41 weak uh attachment to democracy.
7:47 Are not um Well, I don't even think that's controversial statement at this point.
7:56 No, I'm actually being serious now.
8:00 It was a uh it was a controversial statement.
8:03 Now it is self-acknowledged.
8:08 And maybe if if you follow regularly what is said by those who are
8:16 in charge of the federal government right now.
8:21 Uh there there is a weak commitment to what we understood
8:25 and not just uh my generation,
8:30 at least since World War II.
8:34 Uh our understanding of of how a liberal democracy is supposed to work.
8:41 And when I say liberal, I don't mean left.
8:43 I mean liberal in the sense of believing in rule of law
8:48 and independent judiciary and freedom of the press
8:51 and uh freedom of assembly
8:56 and protest and uh compromise
9:04 and pluralism uh all those institutional norms
9:07 and laws that were embodied in the Constitution imperfectly
9:14 and then over time were expanded
9:17 so that we had a a basic understanding of like I can't just be
9:22 picked up on the street
9:23 and hauled off to another country.
9:27 That That's not something That's not That's not
9:31 That That wasn't a
9:33 That wasn't a partisan view.
9:36 That wasn't a Republican or a Democratic notion that that shouldn't happen.
9:40 That was an American value and norm.
9:50 And so so so what I believe it continues to be
9:56 that there has to be responses
10:00 and pushback from civil society from various institutions
10:10 and individuals outside of government,
10:12 but there also has to be people in government in both parties who say,
10:19 "Well, no, you can't do that."
10:22 You can't do that.
10:24 And and um And
10:29 and when what we're seeing right now is
10:30 when you do not have those constraints
10:32 and guardrails,
10:33 right?
10:33 When you don't have um people inside of government who say, "No,
10:40 the uh you know,
10:42 this is how the law works and we should follow it."
10:50 Um Democracy is not self-executing.
10:53 It it it requires people judges and you know,
10:59 people in the Justice Department and you know,
11:03 people throughout the government who take an oath to uphold the Constitution.
11:10 It requires them to take those that oath seriously.
11:16 And and when that isn't happening um we start drifting into a something
11:30 that is not consistent with American democracy.
11:34 It is consistent with autocracies.
11:38 It's consistent with uh Hungary under Orban.
11:46 Uh it it it's consistent with places
11:47 that hold elections but do not otherwise observe what we think of
11:55 as a fair system in
11:59 which everybody's voice matters
12:00 and people have a seat at the table
12:02 and there are checks
12:03 and balances and nobody's above the law.
12:07 Uh And and we're not there yet yet completely.
12:13 But but I think
12:14 that we are um we are dangerously close to normalizing behavior like
12:25 that.
12:26 Uh and and we need people both outside government and inside of government saying,
12:33 "Let's let's not let's not go over
12:36 that uh that over
12:38 that cliff because because it's it's hard to recover."
12:42 And and and and part of the reason I think it's interesting
12:45 when I was when I was first elected um we were in the middle
12:53 of a huge global financial crisis.
12:56 It had started on Wall Street, so understandably other countries were annoyed about it.
13:02 Um and uh the Iraq war obviously was not popular around the world
13:09 and so uh our our reputation
13:13 and our leadership globally was had dipped pretty significantly.
13:19 And so I come in first year
13:20 and I'm doing a lot of travel
13:22 and uh making a lot of speeches
13:24 and holding town halls
13:25 and like this in in foreign countries.
13:28 Um and one of the raps
13:33 that I got from the opposition uh the Republican side was,
13:38 "Ah, he's on an apology tour."
13:40 And and basically what they were arguing was
13:44 that I wasn't just going around bullying other countries
13:48 and telling them that we're better than you,
13:51 which I thought was a bad strategy to get them to cooperate to uh
13:59 Uh I don't know.
14:00 That's human nature, I I think.
14:04 But but what what they always missed
14:06 and and what I would always say uh uh everywhere I went around the
14:14 world was what what makes America exceptional is not
14:19 that it has a big the biggest military,
14:21 it's not that it has the largest economy.
14:26 What what really makes America exceptional is
14:33 that it's the only big country on Earth
14:36 and maybe the only real superpower in history
14:44 that is made up of people from every corner of the globe.
14:49 And they show up they come here
14:57 and and and the glue
14:59 that holds us together is this crazy experiment called democracy.
15:06 And and this this this idea
15:09 that we can somehow despite all our differences we don't look alike,
15:16 we don't uh we we we don't uh worship God in the same way,
15:20 we don't uh like the same foods.
15:26 Uh and yet when this experiment works it gives the world a little bit
15:35 of hope because it says it is possible for human beings who are not
15:43 bound by tribe or race
15:45 or blood but are instead bound by an idea
15:50 that they can somehow work together
15:54 and arrive at a common good.
15:56 That that's what made America exceptional.
16:03 Um and and so >> >>
16:09 and and and and
16:09 so uh I think we we have to recover pride in
16:14 that.
16:18 Um that's what makes us special.
16:20 Uh that and our capacity through this constitutional process
16:26 and representative government and an adherence to I certain ideas uh has allowed us
16:35 to get better,
16:36 not perfect, but get better over time.
16:40 Uh with just one big civil war, large exception,
16:44 but um otherwise we we we've managed to to to make uh real progress.
16:53 You've talked about how the system has frayed since World War II
16:57 and the post-World War II years have seen a lot of things falling apart.
17:01 And there's a lot of different areas we could talk about,
17:03 but what do you see
17:05 as the biggest areas in
17:08 which we're facing challenges in the US
17:10 or that has perhaps taken us to where we are now?
17:14 So some of these trends you could start seeing um during the start of
17:20 my presidency or before the start of my presidency.
17:23 Um a a a couple of huge factors uh I'm not being particularly original
17:32 in saying this.
17:35 Uh The Berlin Wall comes down.
17:38 Uh Cold War is over.
17:40 There's this period in the '90s in
17:42 which the US really doesn't have a competitor.
17:50 And uh the combination of technology,
17:53 transportation improvements um suddenly you have a global marketplace, right?
18:01 With fewer barriers.
18:03 And that that process of globalization
18:05 and technology uh creates this explosion of growth
18:12 and um huge amounts of wealth uh spinning around the globe taking advantage of
18:21 opportunities.
18:24 In in many ways it was this extraordinary period of uh progress
18:29 because you have a billion Chinese lifted out of poverty.
18:33 That's a big deal.
18:34 You have um former Eastern Bloc countries who places like Poland
18:40 or uh that that suddenly are are growing rapidly
18:46 and and people's standards of living are rising.
18:49 India, less so in Africa, but even there you're seeing progress.
18:55 But there was a catch because this was all driven by global capital.
19:01 And that was that it uh it created what some economists referred to
19:09 as a winner-take-all economy.
19:11 In the sense that if you had high skills, you already had capital,
19:15 you had advantages, you had education you could leverage that and do even better.
19:24 And if you didn't have those things you could become redundant and marginalized.
19:31 And that was a happening not just between countries, but within countries.
19:35 And so in advanced countries like the United States,
19:38 economically uh wealthier countries in absolute terms people didn't get s- poorer
19:47 but the gap the rise in inequality made people feel like I'm losing ground.
19:57 And it And this globalization was hugely disruptive.
20:01 And so at first it happened in manufacturing
20:04 and that happens pretty early in the '70s
20:05 and '80s,
20:05 but then it starts happening in other industries
20:09 and retail and you get Walmart
20:12 then Walmart now suddenly has to deal with Amazon.
20:16 Uh and those economic dislocations
20:21 and the capacity of some people to make a hundred billion dollars
20:29 or more and others not
20:34 and and have trouble making the rent
20:36 or feeding their families.
20:37 That's created tensions.
20:40 And and if you combine
20:41 that with a change in the information ecosystem brought on by the internet
20:49 and then social media
20:50 and everybody carrying around this little thing in their pocket.
20:56 Um what that also did was to let everybody know how unequal everything was.
21:04 Yeah, but many people know my my grand my father was from Kenya.
21:09 And when I went there for the first time in 1987 um I mean
21:14 this is rural.
21:15 There there's bare there's no indoor plumbing in a lot of areas.
21:18 There's no electricity.
21:21 Um by the time I went back in let's say the last time I
21:25 was there 2011,
21:27 12 that was probably 13.
21:31 Um everybody's everybody's got a a cell phone.
21:35 So you have people who are subsist subsistence farmers looking at the Kardashians.
21:45 Um and and I it's it's funny.
21:49 It's a weird image.
21:52 But what what that does is it created both a collision of cultures.
21:59 People started seeing how different others were living
22:02 and that's an assault on their identity
22:04 and their status.
22:06 Uh and it also triggered all kinds of movement among peoples.
22:11 The the degree to
22:11 which mass migration has been triggered in part by the the communications revolution I
22:19 think is something that is not talked about enough cuz people started saying,
22:23 "Oh, I can be here
22:24 and here's how I can organize moving to a better life."
22:30 Uh All So you So you get this combination of things.
22:33 Essentially what happens is people are feeling stressed from all sides.
22:40 They feel stressed in terms of their identity.
22:43 They feel stressed economically.
22:45 They they they feel stressed uh in terms of uh social arrangements
22:55 and gender norms and marriage
22:58 and all the institutions
23:00 and and religion all the things they uh they could count on
23:07 as giving solid ground under their feet suddenly all
23:10 that stuff feels up for grabs.
23:13 And and in in
23:14 that situation it's harder to maintain the social trust
23:21 that keeps democracy going.
23:26 And uh and so
23:26 so if you long answer to a what should have been a shorter
23:31 or to a good question
23:34 that I should have responded to quicker.
23:38 Um growing inequality uh a a changed information
23:46 and media environment demographic change uh those who used to be marginalized now wanting
23:58 a seat at the table all those things were disruptive
24:02 and got people nervous uh
24:04 and there was a backlash.
24:07 And and that backlash increasingly took forms in
24:10 which we don't care what we said about democracy.
24:13 We want to make sure that we maintain the status quo.
24:17 And uh and that I think is part of what we're going through right
24:22 now.
24:23 Um and it's probably the changes I just described are accelerating.
24:33 I mean if you ask me right now the thing
24:36 that is not talked about enough
24:38 but is coming to your neighborhood faster than you think this AI revolution is
24:44 not made up.
24:45 It's not overhyped.
24:48 Um you are already they're probably uh I I know uh I was talking
24:54 to some people backstage who are uh associated with businesses uh here in the
24:59 Hartford community.
25:02 Uh I guarantee you you're going to start seeing shifts in white collar work
25:07 as a consequence of uh what these new AI models can do.
25:13 And so you that's going to be more disruption
25:16 and it's going to speed up.
25:17 Which is why uh one of the things I discovered
25:23 as president is most of the problems we face are not simply technical problems.
25:30 If we want to solve climate change uh we probably do need some new
25:35 battery technologies and we need to make progress in terms of getting to zero
25:39 emission carbons,
25:40 but if we were organized right now we could reduce our emissions by 30%
25:46 with existing technologies.
25:48 It'd be a big deal.
25:50 But getting people organized to do that is hard.
25:54 Most of the problems we have have to do with how do we cooperate
25:59 and and work together not you know can do we have a 10-point plan
26:06 or the absence of it.
26:07 Public schools, we know how to teach kids effectively.
26:13 But organizing school boards
26:16 and uh making sure adequate funding is there
26:21 and making sure that teachers can teach
26:24 and that's what's hard.
26:28 So if you ask me right now what is our biggest challenge,
26:32 I go back to what I talked about earlier.
26:34 Our biggest challenge right now is we need democracy
26:39 and social cohesion and trust more than ever
26:45 and it's probably as weak uh
26:51 as it's been since I've been alive.
26:58 And that's a bad combination
27:00 and and so if we're going to fix all these other problems,
27:03 if we're going to deal with climate change effectively,
27:05 if we're going to deal with this AI revolution in a smart way,
27:09 if we're going to um address economic inequality,
27:13 uh it is going to start with a reaffirmation of our ability to work
27:18 collectively together.
27:19 If we don't do
27:20 that then the other stuff is not going to get solved.
27:23 So one of the Yeah, go ahead.
27:31 So one of the things you didn't mention about the accumulation of money into
27:35 certain hands after the fall of Berlin Wall
27:37 and the in the former Soviet republics
27:39 and so on was the degree to
27:40 which people who made
27:41 that money took over the political systems to weight everything in their own favor.
27:46 And one of the things
27:47 that I think is interesting about cell phones for example,
27:51 I think you're absolutely right
27:52 that people can now look at their cell phones
27:54 and say why don't I live like
27:56 that.
27:56 And it seems to me
27:57 that in many ways they are a tool to push back against
28:01 that loaded world if you will
28:03 that has been so skewed toward a very small group of people
28:06 and we're really seeing
28:07 that push come to shove right now under this particular administration.
28:13 It could be.
28:15 Uh look, technologies are tools.
28:23 Um but they're also uh they're also not I don't want to stretch the
28:32 analogy too far,
28:33 but they're also operating systems.
28:35 They kind of move you in certain directions.
28:38 Uh you know, I I was jokingly talking about books previously,
28:42 but books are an interesting technology
28:46 because they force you to focus
28:50 and concentrate your attention over a certain period of time
28:55 and that encourages you to consider a bunch of factors
29:02 and to think about complexity
29:05 and to reason things out.
29:07 It creates certain habits of the mind.
29:10 Uh tweets do something different.
29:16 And look look I was the first digital president
29:20 so I saw the dawn of this
29:23 and saw it unfold.
29:26 Uh in in in the book Audacity of Hope
29:29 that I wrote right after I'd been elected to the Senate.
29:33 So this is pre-presidency.
29:35 I I have a chapter
29:37 that starts with me visiting the Google campus in Mountain View in 2005.
29:45 And it is fascinating.
29:48 I'm talking to Sergey
29:50 and Larry and um
29:54 and you could already see the the revolutionary potential of this.
30:01 And then smartphones come out around 2010
30:05 and are associated with the Arab Spring
30:08 and Tahrir Square and there's this enormous optimism.
30:12 And I myself was elected in part because of this digital revolution.
30:18 Because I was not the uh establishment candidate.
30:24 I'm an upstart.
30:26 And so I've got a bunch
30:27 and and I can't even take credit for any of this be The reason
30:32 I was an early adopter of digital technology
30:35 and campaigning was because I could only afford to hire 20-something-year-olds.
30:44 They were the only ones stupid enough to think
30:47 that we could get me elected to anything.
30:51 And so I'd come into the office and we'd have our little, you know,
30:58 uh Mac and they'd say, "Oh, we set up a web page."
31:03 I said, "That's great.
31:05 What is that?"
31:06 And then they'd kind of show it to me.
31:09 And they'd say, "Look, you can click this button and people can volunteer."
31:13 I said, "Really?
31:15 And what's that button do?"
31:17 "People can send you money."
31:20 I said, "No.
31:24 Really?
31:24 This This is great."
31:26 I had nothing to do with it.
31:29 Um but I was smart enough to get out of these kids' way.
31:32 And and and so but I Yeah,
31:37 I I give credit I I take credit for that.
31:40 Uh the the the the reason I'm saying all
31:41 that is what what you said,
31:43 Heather, is absolutely right.
31:44 There There is the promise of this connectivity being harnessed for good.
31:53 What we have learned subsequently is that it can also be harnessed for bad.
32:05 And uh it can be captured by authoritarian states.
32:09 It can be captured by wealthy economic interests.
32:14 And there is something that has happened in social media in particular,
32:19 which is the their business model shifted.
32:25 Early on the idea was,
32:28 "We just want to put a bunch of good information out there
32:30 and we're going to uh privilege accuracy
32:36 as well as speed
32:40 as sort of the the most important thing
32:42 that you're getting on this platform."
32:45 And at some point their business practices they realized,
32:50 "If we're going to make money,
32:52 maybe the fastest way for us to make money on these platforms is to
32:56 sell ads.
32:57 And once you needed to sell ads,
33:00 then the most important thing was getting attention
33:04 and keeping people engaged on these platforms.
33:08 And it turned out
33:08 that there's part of our reptilian brain
33:11 that gets really attracted to in addition to cat videos um it's attracted to
33:21 anger.
33:23 And it's attracted to resentment and it's attracted to conspiracy theories.
33:28 And it's attracted to um uh those aspects of ourselves
33:38 that react rather than try to think.
33:47 And it also splinters and divides into these slots.
33:55 Um and you go down different rabbit holes.
33:58 And so we what it's done is we've lost a monoculture.
34:04 We We've lost everybody watching Walter Cronkite.
34:08 We've lost everybody watching MASH
34:12 or Mary Tyler Moore
34:14 or All in the Family
34:16 or Roots.
34:17 We've lost uh everybody getting a Time magazine
34:24 and on the cover is this new novel
34:27 or new novelist and
34:29 and so everybody's got to read
34:30 that book.
34:32 And and so it makes it more difficult now for us to find common
34:40 ground.
34:41 It makes it easier to for demagogues to divide us
34:47 and start arguing that those people who do those things in those spots,
34:52 who don't look like us,
34:54 they're after they're after you and they're trying to get you.
34:58 And and and and
34:59 so uh one of the most important challenges I think our democracy faces is
35:09 how do we regain some common sense of truth.
35:16 Not absolute truth, but rough basic truth.
35:23 In 2020 uh one person won the election
35:30 and wasn't the guy complaining about it.
35:34 And that's just a fact.
35:36 That That wasn't Just like you know, my inauguration had more people.
35:47 And that's demonstrable.
35:50 I say that, by the way, not because like I I don't care.
35:59 But facts are important.
36:02 Because if if you can't
36:05 and and and I think one of the most uh one of the most
36:09 pernicious things that has happened is we we have a situation now where we're
36:18 not just arguing policy
36:20 or values or opinions,
36:23 but basic facts are being contested.
36:28 And that is a problem.
36:30 Because then the the marketplace of ideas and the democracy don't work.
36:34 I've I've said this before, but I always repeat it.
36:37 You You and I can have an opinion about this little side table.
36:44 Uh you know, you might not like like the design.
36:48 You might not like like uh uh the color or how it's finished.
36:55 But we can have that discussion.
36:57 If I say to you this is a lawnmower you'll think I'm crazy.
37:07 And if I really believe it, I'll think you're crazy.
37:11 And and we're now in a situation in
37:13 which we are having these just basic factual arguments.
37:21 Uh and and that further undermines trust.
37:24 And those in power,
37:27 those uh with uh money exploit that space in which nobody knows what's true.
37:41 Vlad Vladimir Putin uh
37:46 and the KGB had a saying
37:50 that that was then adopted uh proudly by Steve Bannon.
37:58 Which was if you want uh propaganda to be effective you don't have to
38:10 convince people that what you are saying is true.
38:14 You just have to you flood the zone with
38:17 so much poop They used a different word,
38:22 but but but you have to flood the zone with
38:26 so much untruth constantly
38:32 that at some point people don't believe anything.
38:39 So so so it doesn't matter
38:42 if a candidate running for office just is constantly,
38:48 just hypothetically, saying untrue things.
38:55 Or if an elected president claims that he won when he lost.
39:00 And that the system was rigged.
39:02 But then when he wins then it isn't rigged.
39:06 Because he won.
39:10 It doesn't matter if everybody believes it.
39:12 It just matters if everybody starts kind of throwing up their hands and saying,
39:17 "Well, I guess it doesn't matter."
39:22 And and and that's what's happened.
39:28 Uh That's what's happened uh in in one of our major political parties.
39:33 You have a whole bunch of people who know that's not true,
39:40 but we will pretend like it is.
39:44 And and that is dangerous.
39:50 So, uh one of the things I think Heather you're doing,
39:53 uh for those of you who don't know her newsletter and you know,
39:57 it it's an example of >> >> you know, give you a little plug here.
40:05 But part of what we're going to have to do is to start experimenting
40:09 with new forms of journalism
40:12 and how do we use social media in ways
40:16 that reaffirm facts,
40:20 separate facts from opinion.
40:23 We want diversity of opinion.
40:25 We don't want diversity of facts.
40:29 That I think is is the one of the big tasks of social media.
40:34 By the way, it will require some government, I believe,
40:38 uh some government uh regulatory constraints around some of these business models in a
40:47 way that's consistent with the First Amendment,
40:50 but that also says, look,
40:55 uh there is a difference between uh the these platforms letting all voices be
41:05 heard versus a business model
41:09 that elevates the most hateful voices
41:13 or the most polarizing voices
41:15 or the most um uh dangerous in the sense of inciting violence uh voices.
41:25 And and and I
41:28 that that I think is is going to be a big challenge for all
41:30 of us that we're going to have to undertake.
41:33 I have a couple questions about that.
41:35 Um how do you think we can rebuild a sense of shared national identity?
41:41 And and let me give you the other one because maybe they overlap.
41:45 >> Yeah.
41:45 We have a number of different sectors in this country who are now sort
41:49 of banding together in the face of hostility.
41:52 And what are their different roles in that project?
41:55 And I'm thinking of universities and law firms and businesses.
41:58 And you talked about media, but also about culture.
42:04 So, I I There is this great American story.
42:13 And it it's it's like the Great American Songbook.
42:16 The there there is a running thread through America.
42:22 From yeah, Thomas Paine
42:25 and George Washington to Thoreau
42:28 and Emerson and Lincoln
42:29 and Douglas and uh yeah,
42:32 all the way through yeah, King and and um yeah,
42:39 Kennedys and inaugural uh there is the Whitman uh there is a story about
42:49 America that includes everybody.
42:51 It's a good story.
42:53 It's it's it's a story about people who it's a it's a story about
43:00 people who aren't pretentious
43:10 and don't believe that anybody is worse than them
43:13 or better than them.
43:14 That we're all we're all in endowed with with a a core dignity.
43:24 And and uh and are deserving of rights and respect.
43:35 And uh have to assume responsibility for our our selves individually
43:43 and our collective lives.
43:43 And we all play a part.
43:48 And that historically has not been a uh I'm repeating myself here.
43:54 It hasn't been a Republican or a Democratic idea.
43:58 That is an American idea that everybody could could tap into.
44:07 Um and if that ends up being our starting point for a a a
44:11 a common identity.
44:13 If our starting point is these homespun values of what we we don't have
44:21 aristocracies here.
44:22 We don't have rank.
44:25 We don't have monarchies.
44:28 We have rule of law.
44:30 All people are equal in the eyes of the law.
44:37 That we uh all have a part to play in democracy.
44:43 That we all have to take individual responsibility for our lives,
44:46 but we also have to as Lincoln said,
44:49 do some things together
44:51 because we can do it better together than we can do it apart.
44:56 If if that's our starting point, then I I think we'll be okay.
45:03 But that's not where we are right now.
45:05 I think right now what we're seeing is a politics
45:11 that is reasserting a bad story of America.
45:18 Which is that even if there are technically ranks,
45:26 uh we like the idea of caste.
45:28 And we like the idea of hierarchy.
45:32 And some people, this is our country.
45:36 Uh the real Americans.
45:38 And these other folks are the phony and the fake Americans.
45:42 Or not even American.
45:46 And that story also has a deep uh history in this country.
45:55 Right?
45:56 That says, okay, the the first Americans aren't Americans.
46:03 And slaves are not Americans.
46:06 And women are sort of Americans
46:09 as long as they're doing what their husbands say.
46:15 And people of different sexual orientations,
46:17 they're not we don't even want to hear about them.
46:22 That story has been part of America as well.
46:26 And and you know,
46:28 people sometimes ask me what is my favorite what is it the the favorite
46:33 of the speeches I've given?
46:34 And and probably my favorite
46:36 and will be a portion of it's on the the face of the Presidential
46:42 Center that uh we will be opening next year in Chicago.
46:47 It is is the speech I gave at in Selma for the 50th anniversary.
46:53 And and the reason I love
46:54 that speech is because to me
46:59 that contest on the Edmund Pettus Bridge is
47:04 as important a battle
47:06 as Concord and Lexington
47:09 and Appomattox.
47:13 Because you have you have on one side you have a you have on
47:20 one side John Lewis in a backpack
47:26 and an apple and a toothbrush
47:28 and maids and college students who have flown down
47:31 and rabbis and uh you know,
47:36 young priests and and they are carrying with them across that bridge this story,
47:43 this better story that we're all equal.
47:47 We all have a place.
47:51 Nobody's worse, nobody's better.
47:53 And we can all join together.
47:55 And on the other side you've got folks on horseback with billy clubs
48:01 and gun guns and
48:03 and and dogs.
48:06 And and they're carrying a different story, which is no.
48:12 Ignore what we say in the Declaration of Independence.
48:16 We have caste.
48:22 And and some people are better
48:24 and more deserving than others
48:27 and have more power
48:28 and more wealth.
48:32 And and so I think we are you know,
48:34 that that question right now is being called.
48:36 And and you asked about universities, law firms, businesses.
48:47 One of my bigger concerns is
48:49 when I see institutions cower before this bad story
48:58 because they're worried that it will um affect their bottom lines in some fashion.
49:08 And the question I've asked you
49:11 because there've been partners in law firms who have called me
49:13 and asked me about this.
49:14 There have been university presidents who I've had conversations with about this.
49:19 Businesses who have who've asked me how they think they should handle this.
49:24 And what I've said to them is, well, what do you believe?
49:32 Like like that's your starting point.
49:34 What do you care about?
49:35 What's your mission?
49:41 If If you believe If you are a university, what is your core mission?
49:48 And if if if as I think your core mission should be,
49:52 it's to teach to transmit knowledge and and broaden horizons for young minds.
50:00 And and and transmit information that allows them not just to get a job,
50:04 but also to live meaningful lives and be good citizens.
50:09 If that's your mission
50:13 then it really doesn't matter what the threats are coming at from the other
50:16 you push back against somebody who says you can't carry out
50:19 that mission.
50:21 If you are a law firm then Now, obviously, you're running a business.
50:30 It's partnership.
50:31 You're billing.
50:32 You want clients.
50:37 But you're also all supposed to be officers of the court.
50:41 You went into the law presumably not just
50:46 because you couldn't think of anything else to do
50:53 or your dad or your mom thought it was a good idea.
50:55 Presumably, you went into the law because you believe in the law.
51:00 So, if you are getting pressure from government saying ignore
51:11 or fudge or compromise
51:15 that commitment you have to push back.
51:18 Now one thing that I've noticed
51:23 and I I've said this before uh in in a few other venues.
51:29 Heather, you and I we both grew up after this World War II
51:36 and America's you know,
51:39 the Colossus around the world
51:40 and we're exporting all these ideas
51:42 and our economy is growing
51:44 and and terrible things happened has have happened during our lifetimes.
51:49 You know Vietnam and assassinations and you know,
51:55 killing fields in Rwanda
51:57 and so so I don't want to in any way minimize those things.
52:00 But what's been fascinating about this period in our history
52:04 and that's anomalous is
52:06 that things got sort of steadily better.
52:12 I mean, the world became hugely wealthier
52:21 and healthier and better educated
52:25 and infant mortality dropped
52:28 and uh and women
52:29 and girls suddenly had access to education
52:32 and human rights became an idea
52:38 that people violated,
52:40 but were guilty about.
52:43 You know, if you listen to sometimes like just Nixon the Nixon tapes just
52:50 talking about bombing Cambodia.
52:53 Crazy how indifferent they were in ways
52:56 that were taken for granted
52:58 then and now whatever differences I have with the Bush administration they wouldn't have
53:04 conversations like that.
53:05 And that happened just in 20 years.
53:09 So I think a lot of us started to take it for granted.
53:13 And part of what happened was
53:14 if you were relatively privileged to have been grown up in the the United
53:19 States of America during this period you could be
53:22 as progressive and socially conscious
53:25 as you wanted and you did not have to pay a price.
53:29 You you could still make a lot of money.
53:32 You could still hang out in you know,
53:35 Aspen and Milan and travel
53:40 and have a house in the Hamptons
53:43 and still be and still think of yourself
53:47 as a progressive.
53:51 And now things are a little different.
53:55 Your commitments are being tested.
53:59 Not the way Nelson Mandela's commitments were tested where you go to jail for
54:03 27 years.
54:06 You might lose some of your donors if you're a university.
54:14 And if you're a law firm, your billings might drop a little bit,
54:17 which means you cannot remodel
54:21 that kitchen in your house in the Hamptons this summer.
54:30 And if you're business
54:31 and this has happened
54:32 because I've been getting calls about it.
54:35 Yes, you may be threatened by an administration
54:39 that says we won't approve a merger
54:42 or we will launch an investigation of you.
54:48 And and and we will make you uncomfortable.
54:52 Part of what all this tariff stuff is about by the way.
54:56 Because it's such It it it is it is is such poorly thought out
55:08 uh economics.
55:08 So, you kind of wonder well,
55:10 why would you do something that that that's just not well thought out.
55:16 But I mean, you can apply tariffs.
55:18 There there's a place for tariffs to help open up markets
55:21 and leverage the United States sometimes gets taken advantage of
55:25 because we've been the biggest market.
55:27 China in particular as it came up started uh taking advantage of the rules.
55:35 And and my administration applied tariffs as well occasionally to counteract these bad practices.
55:42 But that's not what's going on now.
55:46 What's going on now is is
55:47 that the tariffs means everybody has to come to you for favor.
56:00 You apply blanket tariffs around the world.
56:03 Now suddenly Vietnam's got to negotiate tariffs
56:07 and oh would it be helpful to in terms of lowering tariffs
56:11 if maybe we approved a golf course for a certain business.
56:17 All right.
56:20 Let's discuss that.
56:25 Uh So so what's happening is
56:27 that we now have a situation in
56:29 which all of us are going to be tested in some way.
56:35 And we are going to have to then decide what our commitments are.
56:41 And there will be it will be uncomfortable for a time.
56:46 But that's how you know it's a commitment.
56:49 Because you do it when it's hard.
56:53 Not just when it's easy.
56:54 Not just when it's trendy.
56:55 Not just when it's cool.
56:58 You know?
56:59 And and and I sometimes I feel
57:01 as if during my presidency I think a lot of people felt comfortable in
57:10 their righteousness because if they didn't have to test it.
57:17 And now you have to test it a little bit more.
57:24 Um President Obama, it has been a real pleasure.
57:28 And I I would like to end
57:30 if we can on a note of hope.
57:32 Yes.
57:32 And that is you know,
57:34 I don't know if you all know that the president and Mrs.
57:36 Obama have the Obama Foundation which fosters the next generation of leaders.
57:42 And I would love
57:42 if you could tell us what advice you are giving those young scholars to
57:47 enable them to be optimistic about their future
57:50 and about the future
57:52 and maybe about our future.
57:53 >> Yes.
57:54 I'm still optimist I'm still a hope guy.
57:57 I am.
57:58 Um but but the thing is look,
58:03 part of the reason I'm hopeful is
58:05 as as Heather mentioned uh our foundation the premise of it is
58:12 that um leaders are not just
58:20 that they don't just pop up.
58:23 That there is extraordinary talent in every community.
58:29 In rural neighbor communities and in inner city neighborhoods.
58:35 They're remarkable leaders in fancy Ivy League schools,
58:38 but they're also amazing leaders who don't go to college
58:41 and are organizing unions
58:45 or organizing neighborhoods and that's true not just in the United States,
58:50 but around the world.
58:51 And so we our mission is to train this next generation of leaders,
58:56 give them uh resources ideas most importantly to convene them
59:05 so they know they're not alone.
59:08 And when I say young people,
59:09 we've got programs that reach very young people like My Brother's Keeper targeting um
59:18 young men of color who historically you know,
59:22 have been left out.
59:24 Um Girls Opportunity Alliance
59:26 that focuses on women
59:28 and girls making sure they they have access to opportunity
59:30 and around the world
59:32 as well as here.
59:33 But a lot of the leaders we're talking about are doctors who've set up
59:38 clinics in Appalachia to fight the opioid crisis
59:43 or clinics in sub-Saharan Africa for to give women access to health care.
59:51 Uh it's you know,
59:52 human rights lawyers in Eastern Europe
59:55 and it's civil rights lawyers here in the United States.
60:00 And and um and we've got members of parliament and state legislators,
60:07 but we also have um activists
60:11 and journalists and people who put on community theater.
60:16 You you watch these young people
60:18 and it will make you optimistic
60:19 because the thing that I have seen is
60:23 that that better story of America is alive
60:26 and well.
60:28 And it's in the hearts and minds of people everywhere.
60:36 But we're not giving it enough of an institutional base and support.
60:44 And we're not fighting for
60:45 that better story enough
60:46 and these kids are willing to be on the front lines fighting for it
60:50 every day.
60:54 And and so where my optimism comes from it's not blind optimism.
60:59 I've said before I don't think progress goes in a straight line.
61:05 Uh I think that there are times where you take two steps forward
61:08 and you take one step back.
61:09 There are times where you take one step forward and take two steps back.
61:12 That's been true in the United States.
61:13 It's been true around the world.
61:18 But if we are willing to uh attach ourselves to
61:24 that better story in our own individual lives in our communities,
61:29 in our businesses, in our law firms, universities,
61:32 in our places of worship uh then I think the good will win out.
61:47 And um I guess the the thing
61:48 that I when I'm talking to these young people
61:49 though they need to hear the most is it it is important to be
62:00 impatient with injustice and in cruel
62:03 and and and cruelty
62:05 and and um there's there's a healthy outrage
62:13 that we should be exhibiting in terms of what's currently happening both here
62:18 and around the world.
62:21 But if you want to deliver on change,
62:24 then it's a game of addition not subtraction,
62:28 which means you have to find ways to make common ground with people who
62:34 don't agree with you on everything,
62:37 but agree with you on some things.
62:43 And you know, we were talking about social media earlier.
62:47 It's part of the reason why my favorite app
62:49 or I guess it wasn't an app program,
62:51 whatever it was.
62:52 I don't know always the terminology.
62:54 When we were running our campaign was Meetup.
62:57 You remember Meetup?
62:58 So, young people you do not remember Meetup.
63:01 Some older people remember it.
63:05 So, it's a you could send out information on it.
63:11 But then attached to it would be, let's meet up.
63:17 And you didn't stay in your cocoon on your on your phone.
63:23 The phone prompted you to to then actually meet people in the real world.
63:28 And the reason I loved it was you'd get like the Idahoans for Obama.
63:35 We didn't send a staff to Idaho cuz generally it was not going to
63:38 vote for a Democrat,
63:41 but we wanted to encourage volunteers, so they'd self-organize.
63:46 They'd send out, let's meet in a church basement and they'd all show up.
63:50 And online it sounds like they're all the same.
63:54 And they agree on everything and you know,
63:57 there's a certain type of person who's supporting Obama.
64:00 Then they show up and it's like,
64:01 you've got what looks like a former army colonel with a buzz cut
64:08 and a flannel shirt.
64:09 And then you got a young black woman with a nose ring.
64:13 And then you've got a mom uh pushing a stroller coming in cuz she
64:18 couldn't get a babysitter.
64:19 And now they've got to have a conversation
64:25 that doesn't just um focus on we hate the other side
64:31 or we don't like this
64:33 or we don't Actually they now actually have to recognize,
64:36 oh part of being a community,
64:39 part of learning from each other is even the people we agree with,
64:43 we don't agree with 100% of the time.
64:48 We have to people are complicated and unique and they have their own stories.
64:54 That I think is a lot of what we're we work with with our
65:00 our young folks is fighting against this tendency to try to just pigeonhole everybody.
65:09 And I think the left sometimes does it
65:13 as much as the right
65:14 and it's part of what contributes sometimes to backlash.
65:21 When the left starts being scolds
65:23 and abs wanting absolute positions on things
65:27 and like you have to agree with me on everything.
65:32 Uh as opposed to, you know what?
65:34 I'm not crazy about your position on X,
65:36 but man don't you agree on Y?
65:39 Well, let's work on that for a while.
65:43 That I think is where you start seeing hope
65:45 because what ends up happening is
65:47 when people actually meet
65:49 and they get to know each other
65:50 and then they work on a common endeavor
65:56 then that what Lincoln called those better angels come out.
66:01 Peo- people start recognizing themselves in each other.
66:07 And they start trusting each other.
66:10 And and that's uh not just the basis for democracy,
66:15 but that's uh the the basis for our long-term salvation.
66:20 So.
66:21 All right.
66:22 That was fun.
66:27 Thank you.
66:28 Thank you.
66:28 Appreciate you tonight.
66:30 Thank you.
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