0:00 Uh, we used to talk a lot about everyone talk about how how many
0:02 impressions.
0:03 When we fired the spokes candies a few Super Bowls ago,
0:05 it was 25 billion impressions.
0:07 So, it's like three times the global population.
0:11 It's like, what does that even mean?
0:12 And so, you would be quoting these numbers and thinking,
0:15 I don't know what that means for the business.
0:16 And those days are over.
0:19 >> This is CMO Insider,
0:20 where you'll get candid takes on the marketing power players and power moves.
0:24 My name's Lara O'Reilly.
0:25 I'm a senior correspondent at Business Insider.
0:28 I'm joined today by Rankin Carroll.
0:30 Rankin is chief brand officer of Mars Snacking.
0:34 Rankin, thanks so much for joining us.
0:35 >> Thanks, Lara.
0:36 Great to be here. >> thank you so much.
0:37 So, so you look after lots of really exciting brands at Mars.
0:40 You've been there for what, 23 years, 24 years?
0:44 Um, so Skittles, Cheez-Its, Kellogg's, Pringles.
0:47 And a lot of those brands only just recently came under your remit.
0:50 You recently went through a very big acquisition, Kellanova,
0:54 something like 36 billion dollars coming into the fold.
0:57 Can you talk to me about what it's like looking after a a big
1:01 acquisition like that?
1:03 >> Um, we've got, you know, strong founder cultures at both uh, Kellanova, formerly Kellogg's,
1:08 W.K.
1:08 Kellogg, the founder, and that whole story, 100-year-old,
1:10 100-plus-year-old company, combining with Mars,
1:14 also over a century old and a family-owned business, the Mars family.
1:17 And I think the thing you've got to honor the past.
1:19 You've got brilliant brands that are they've built themselves as icons.
1:23 Pringles or Cheez-It or Pop-Tarts, personal favorite, respecting that culture, respecting that,
1:29 you know, brand archaeology, what made these brands the icons they are,
1:33 and never forgetting that.
1:34 And then remaining consistent, cuz the worst thing that can happen is you get,
1:37 you know, what we call the new brand manager syndrome is I'm going to
1:40 come in and change things.
1:42 Well, that would be a a fatal error.
1:44 How do you take the brilliance that you've been gifted, um,
1:47 and work with it,
1:48 and then build it into some of the systems
1:50 that have helped us build success at Mars to help further them
1:53 and further them for growth going forward?
1:55 >> Can you give an example of how that comes life?
1:57 It's It's kind of hard to comprehend how
1:59 that then translates into someone picking up this candy bar from the shelf versus
2:03 another.
2:04 >> We believe this truly getting data at the heart of what we do,
2:09 starting with the consumer,
2:11 and then multiplying that
2:12 and enhancing that through technology is a game changer for how we think about
2:18 uh brand growth.
2:20 So, once you accept that but how we reach consumers versus big vehicles,
2:25 big buys that we used to do,
2:27 we're now breaking that up into multiple a multiplicity of reach vehicles.
2:31 >> So, you would do a big TV buy.
2:33 >> Yeah, formerly we would have done one thing, one channel, big reach,
2:38 and hope for the best,
2:39 you know. >> it for 3 months
2:39 and then move on to the next thing. >> 70% you know,
2:42 uh 2 plus reach.
2:43 I think what we're now doing is finding still large
2:46 but more precision around a groups of audiences.
2:49 So, we're talking to multiple groups of audiences
2:52 and able to customize
2:53 and personalize if you will our con- our content for those audiences.
2:57 And that means that our consumers experience of
3:00 that will be depending on who you are,
3:04 what your motivations are, uh what your passion points are,
3:06 you will see one message coming from say Snickers.
3:09 But if you're in a different group,
3:11 that message would be served to you possibly certainly in a different channel,
3:14 in a different uh media, and shaped differently.
3:18 >> So, might something like Snickers be an example of this?
3:20 The I remember the campaign that you did um around the the Euros,
3:25 the soccer tournament with um Jose Mourinho.
3:29 >> We obviously want to build brands with meaning as we always have.
3:32 So, great brands that are consistently delivered with distinctive distinctive brand propositions.
3:37 That will never change.
3:38 That is the bedrock of our success as a company,
3:40 the bedrock by the way of Keurig Dr.
3:41 Pepper success as a company uh and now combined.
3:45 But then I think the big difference is now we need to personalize at
3:47 scale.
3:48 Today's consumers expect to be able to get involved with a brand, co-create,
3:52 have a voice, participate.
3:53 Not all of them, but a good portion of them.
3:55 If you take those principles into how we work
3:58 and use apply them to the Snickers example you raised.
4:01 >> Yeah, you can you take a step back from the screen?
4:03 >> that was fundamentally starting from a Snickers play and the fandom.
4:08 So we know the behavior around the Euros around football is banter.
4:12 >> I see.
4:12 >> So essentially we cloned Jose, you know, in partnership with Jose.
4:19 The the concept was own goal.
4:20 So what own goal what error have you made cuz you're hungry?
4:23 Snickers.
4:24 Um and he would just give a very special one bit of banter back
4:28 to you.
4:28 And then by the way, you could send that to your friend,
4:30 they could send it on and it just exploded.
4:32 So that experience was something we would never would have done before,
4:35 but we had the data, we had the access, we had the technology capability.
4:38 And by the way,
4:39 that whole experience in terms of governance for a company like ours was quite
4:43 a journey.
4:44 You can imagine what would go in.
4:45 Um >> Yeah, user generated content could go very wrong very quickly. >> really wrong.
4:49 So it was remarkable.
4:51 So it was a big it was a big step for us
4:52 because it got us over the governance
4:54 and started to trust ourselves,
4:56 trust the technology to take care of things.
4:58 And and probably convinced the organization that we could enter into these spaces.
5:02 >> So talk me through when you're in the room with whoever it was,
5:05 the CFO, the the the legal team, and you're saying, "Trust me,
5:10 this will be fine."
5:12 >> We sat with lawyers, with our brand safety team, with our security team,
5:19 um with the brand team,
5:19 with the agency team and and brought that group together from the beginning.
5:23 Everything we're talking about really is about bringing people together from the beginning
5:26 so everyone understands.
5:28 Cuz you don't show up and sort of it's a big reveal, tada,
5:31 and having 14 people go, "No, you don't.
5:33 Like are you crazy?"
5:34 >> like the Don Draper doing a presentation. >> real anymore.
5:39 So so I think you got to bring them along.
5:40 Why?
5:41 Not just to get over the line because they will contribute.
5:43 Cuz we're entering into territories and it was like the jungle.
5:46 And so how do we enter the jungle safely?
5:48 Well, you bring experts with you who know what they're doing.
5:50 And so, I think this was one of our earliest pilots.
5:53 The great news is we have scaled that.
5:54 We took it in other countries.
5:55 We've also scaled it in other brands.
5:57 We did another uh treatment with WhatsApp and Meta on Twix,
6:01 which was the Twix Harmonizer,
6:02 which again was you could read in things
6:04 and it would send messages to your friends,
6:06 but harmonize the bad news um on a voice note.
6:09 So, it just was the beginning of us trying uh different different um technologies,
6:16 different uh ways of entertaining consumers
6:19 and getting them involved
6:20 so they could co-create.
6:20 >> And how do you go about measuring that?
6:23 With something like a TV campaign,
6:24 there's years worth of research
6:26 and GRPs and media mix modeling
6:29 and all and all of
6:29 that that goes into measuring whether a campaign was seen by the people you
6:32 wanted to it be seen by.
6:34 When it's something like that where there isn't necessarily, you know, even clicks perhaps,
6:38 like how do you go about working out whether
6:40 that was a success
6:41 or not?
6:42 >> Uh we used to talk a lot about everyone talk about how how
6:43 how many impressions you landed.
6:45 We literally, I think we did an M&M's
6:47 when we fired the spokes candies a few Super Bowls ago,
6:50 it was 25 billion impressions.
6:52 So, it's like three times the global population.
6:55 He's like, "What does that even mean?"
6:57 And so, you would be quoting these numbers and thinking,
6:59 "I don't know what that means for the business."
7:01 And those days are over and I think, you know, impressions or views impressions,
7:06 it's hard to qua- quantify the impact of that.
7:08 So, what we're working on now, we had we have a development partnership with,
7:11 for instance, a company called Alembic.
7:13 So, we're talking about practically, what does that mean?
7:16 Snickers has a partnership with, say, WWE wrestling in the US.
7:21 That has a broadcast.
7:23 On that broadcast, the announcer happens to talk about Snickers.
7:26 That's that moment gets talked about in a podcast later on.
7:31 That leads to a sale in Texas.
7:33 Their LLM can actually get a hold of tho-
7:36 that chain of events
7:38 and start to attribute value to it.
7:40 Just to give you a simple example.
7:41 There's data science behind this.
7:43 We've had experts check it,
7:44 so you know >> say you must have to audit that, right?
7:47 >> Yeah, >> >> of course.
7:47 But but um you know, don't trust me, trust the expert.
7:50 But But the point is we're exploring
7:53 that uh at scale now
7:55 and trying to to push into new ways to get a hold of truly
7:59 measuring the business value created by earned.
8:02 So, we are working through connecting all those systems to try to understand that.
8:06 And that is that is a journey.
8:09 And by the way,
8:10 that's what makes this job
8:11 so amazing is um we are in a new age of learning.
8:15 We are in a new age of developing our skills.
8:17 So, if you're curious, if you have, you know, uh a bias for learning,
8:22 it couldn't be a better time to do what we're doing.
8:24 >> Mhm.
8:24 And now, a word from our sponsor, LinkedIn Ads,
8:27 to talk about how to cut the bull spend from your marketing budget.
8:31 >> Marketing leaders today are under more pressure than ever to prove real impact
8:35 and concrete business outcomes.
8:37 I'm joined by Keith Browning, Director of Global Brand Marketing at LinkedIn,
8:42 to learn more.
8:43 What makes LinkedIn uniquely suited to deliver measurable business outcomes, especially in B2B?
8:49 >> LinkedIn is the largest professional network in the world, so we're built for this.
8:52 We're built for B2B.
8:53 So, that means firstly being able to find the right people.
8:56 So, you know, you can target by job title or seniority, company, etc.
9:01 But there's also the professional context component as well.
9:04 So, people come to LinkedIn to to learn, to evaluate potential solutions,
9:10 and certainly to make buying decisions as well.
9:12 >> I wanted to talk about you you mentioned M&M's
9:15 and firing your your spokes candies.
9:16 Now, I wanted to talk about some of the times
9:18 when you've taken maybe a bit of a risk creatively
9:21 as a marketer.
9:22 So, um a couple of years ago,
9:25 um M&M's kind of leaned into the the more kind of like diverse side
9:30 of of its brand,
9:31 and it touched a nerve in the US,
9:34 and there was a the Um can you talk me through that story,
9:38 but also how you reacted, or maybe actually on to the contrary,
9:44 when you decided not to react
9:46 and not to immediately pull
9:48 or or or immediately back down.
9:50 >> First of all, we are custodians of iconic brands and they're, by the way,
9:54 owned by a family business.
9:56 So, you are very conscious of your responsibility in that regard.
9:59 So, risk taking, it's easy to talk about risk,
10:02 but these are assets in someone's family assets.
10:06 And so, when you enter into things like this,
10:08 you want to be resonant in culture and possibly a little bit provocative.
10:13 But, provocation in the context of who you are as a brand.
10:16 And I think where brands get into troubles
10:18 when they step out of their lane,
10:19 they step into areas where why are you even in this conversation?
10:23 Um, versus in that example, >> So, the example was >> Yeah,
10:28 when we the example of a
10:29 when we fired the spokes candies
10:30 and there was a reaction to
10:32 that.
10:33 I think we could have taken ourselves a bit seriously
10:37 and taken it more seriously than an an M&M's character ever would >> >>
10:42 and reacted in a certain way,
10:43 but I think what we did instead was we had fun with it.
10:46 And we responded with Green tweeting, "Did my shoes just break the internet?"
10:52 >> Yeah.
10:52 >> Instead of saying getting sort of a little bit on our soapbox or etc.
10:56 So, I think we reacted in a way that M&M's would.
10:57 >> But, I think also in in, you know,
11:00 politically charged times and when consumers are feeling the hit on their wallet,
11:06 sometimes marketers can opt to play it safe and not want to take risks.
11:12 And so, it seemed like you kind of zigged where where others zagged at
11:15 that point.
11:17 >> Um, yeah, listen, I I think we I come back to I think
11:20 we try to do what the brand would do naturally
11:23 and stay in character
11:24 and stay in voice.
11:25 The same thing is true of,
11:26 if I look at Skittles and the support for LGBTQ,
11:29 we've been doing that for going on 10 years.
11:32 Doing what comes naturally, continuing a behavior you've established over time, you know,
11:37 you've built the expectation.
11:38 You've built who you It's part of who you are as a brand.
11:41 So, cuz I think sometimes brands would launch into things for maybe good reasons,
11:47 but not have done the scoping of what could How could this play out?
11:53 Um cuz you don't want to be there kind of holding the bag going,
11:55 "Where are we going now?"
11:57 Cuz that's the worst place to be, obviously.
11:59 >> Right.
12:00 And then it's the apology tweet
12:01 and the ending the campaign
12:03 or whatever and nobody ends up looking good.
12:05 >> So, I don't I just don't think we've entered into areas
12:07 that are high risk.
12:09 >> Mhm.
12:09 >> Cuz it's it's easy to say take risks
12:11 as a brand as a brand leader.
12:12 Well, what does that really mean?
12:14 >> A lot of marketers
12:15 that I speak to at the moment um are talking about how difficult it
12:18 has become to cut through uh on digital,
12:21 particularly on social media.
12:23 >> I think what's critical to cut through is it's still a game of
12:28 compelling stories.
12:29 So, whatever media, whatever whatever social platform you're in,
12:33 if you are not creating experiences that are compelling, enjoyable, entertaining.
12:40 I think that's a word that we've slightly forgotten about.
12:42 Entertainment.
12:43 People are still looking for content that takes their, you know, captures their attention.
12:49 I don't want to steal their attention.
12:52 >> Right.
12:52 >> Cuz it's their attention.
12:52 >> And you have fun brands, right?
12:53 Like you've got to put fairly a lot of really fun brands
12:55 that you can play around with. >> it's you know,
12:57 whether it's what we do on Skittles,
12:59 whether we are making a uh giving you the opportunity to win the experience
13:04 of having a commercial made in your front yard.
13:06 Well, that's a bit of fun.
13:08 Um or we are, as I say,
13:10 creating an experience for you to send some banter to your mates around football.
13:14 So, it's going into their passion points.
13:16 It's going into their lives and saying, "We can bring something to you."
13:19 Is real But that's a big move for a company like ours.
13:22 You have to let go.
13:23 But we're getting more confident in doing that.
13:25 So, I think it's building a that is okay with that.
13:29 Creating the guidelines and the guardrails to protect your brand as you do that.
13:33 But then being bold
13:34 and being ambitious and piloting piloting your way into things
13:37 that you can actually scale.
13:39 >> And talking about kind of loosening the leash around the brand a little bit.
13:41 How does that fit into things like your influencer marketing strategy?
13:45 How are you building a program around that?
13:47 >> Um it took a
13:49 while for us to go profession like influencers aren't just it's not just a
13:52 wild west.
13:53 I think it started a bit like the wild >> Well,
13:55 just DMing people >> Yeah. and just saying hey have a go.
13:58 Uh they're professional.
14:00 They're they're contracted and they're starting to be represented by by, you know,
14:04 um they're getting consolidating, bringing together uh in different organizations including our agency partners.
14:10 Um so, they're becoming another channel,
14:12 another way to engage with the consumer
14:13 and we know fortunately
14:15 or unfortunately consumers trust influencers more than they trust brands.
14:20 So, if we are working with them um
14:24 and they authentically believe in what the brand's doing,
14:26 what the brand's saying, they become advocates for us.
14:29 So, understanding those relationships
14:31 and finding ways to work with them
14:33 and giving them the ability to open up
14:36 and co-create and create things
14:37 that are relevant for their channels in their own voice.
14:40 What does that look like and how are we building?
14:42 So, we did a thing in Germany with an influencer there
14:45 that actually launched a song
14:46 that was in the top 10 in Spotify um linked to Extra gum,
14:50 which is remarkable.
14:51 But so so that's just one simple example of going through a new media,
14:56 if you will, through an influencer in a way
14:59 that was relevant for her audience
15:01 that really was a very positive thing for our brand.
15:05 >> And now a word from our sponsor, LinkedIn Ads,
15:07 to talk about how to cut the bull spend from your marketing budget.
15:11 >> LinkedIn's Cut the Bull Spend campaign urges marketers to rethink how they evaluate
15:15 performance and where their budgets actually drive impact.
15:19 I'm here with Keith Browning, Director of Global brand marketing at LinkedIn,
15:23 to learn more.
15:24 How do you define bull spend in practical terms?
15:27 >> So, I'd say bull spend is really wasted advertising spend.
15:31 It's an investment that leads to a great-looking dashboard.
15:34 So, the numbers look good, the arrows are going in the right direction,
15:37 but really it's not actually doing anything to to drive the business forward,
15:40 so it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
15:42 >> How does LinkedIn help marketers reduce waste and increase efficiency in real terms?
15:48 >> At LinkedIn, you don't have to pay for attention from people who you
15:51 know are never going to buy from you.
15:52 A mass reach works great if you're selling breakfast cereal,
15:56 not so much if you're selling, you know, CRMs.
15:58 That's really where LinkedIn is different.
16:00 >> We've touched upon AI a little bit in our conversation so far,
16:03 but I'm interested frankly in how you're using AI day-to-day.
16:06 Are you you vibe coding?
16:09 >> >> No, I'm not.
16:13 Um No, listen, we we are using it uh quite actively.
16:17 It's easy to get caught up in a shiny new toy
16:19 and run there um with abandon.
16:22 It's exciting, but it's very dangerous.
16:23 So, we have to be careful.
16:26 So, I I just stress that.
16:27 So, we're not sort of with you know, it's not reckless.
16:30 Um that said, I would say that we're applying it probably in three ways.
16:34 In how we manage uh and meet consumers where they are.
16:38 Then to the making, the making of the content.
16:41 AI is starting to have immense impact.
16:43 Our creativity starts with human beings and it always will.
16:46 And I still I I'm convinced that so far AI isn't originating anything.
16:52 It's replicating what's come in the past and it does a brilliant job.
16:55 And then last thing as I mentioned earlier, it's coming to measurement.
16:58 So, how we are able to measure,
17:01 that is a mind-opening space around measuring the impact of what we do.
17:05 So, in those areas, it you know, the the the the the the media,
17:11 the making, and the measurement um huge impact.
17:15 >> And AI in advertising
17:17 and marketing brings all of those opportunities
17:20 that you just you just mentioned,
17:21 but also there's a lot of anxiousness about kind of things like job losses
17:25 and what's that going to mean for for people in their early stage of
17:28 their careers.
17:29 How are you thinking about building your teams
17:31 and nurture the next next generation of marketing talent?
17:34 >> Yeah, it's an immense responsibility.
17:36 Cuz I think the simple equation is you take out the work well you
17:38 take out the people.
17:39 I don't buy that.
17:40 I think you take out the work
17:41 that drags people down
17:43 and elevate and give them an opportunity to do much more interesting
17:46 and creative things.
17:47 So I think that the potential is to elevate what everyone's doing
17:49 and push everyone up a level by taking out stuff
17:52 that takes up your time
17:53 and allowing you to focus on strategic thinking,
17:55 on creativity, um on getting to fresh brilliant ideas that will engage consumers,
18:01 and learning how to use AI.
18:04 So more time to learn,
18:05 more time to understand how to use the tools at your disposal.
18:08 I do think the other side of this
18:10 though is there's a risk
18:11 and the backlash has already started.
18:13 So I think if we start overplaying our AI hands,
18:18 um that could result in consumers pushing back.
18:22 Now, I don't pretend to have a crystal ball
18:24 and how that's going to play out,
18:25 but in 10 years a marketing role
18:27 and what we do
18:28 as CMOs will have changed utterly.
18:31 There's huge advantages.
18:33 There's risks that go with it
18:34 and I think we have to learn our way through it.
18:36 >> But is it is it changing, for example,
18:38 the types of people that you hire or are you I mean, for example,
18:42 you said that you wanted to kind of do away with some of the
18:44 drudgery and open people up to doing the more exciting work.
18:47 Does that does that kind of change the mix?
18:49 How ideas get presented?
18:51 How how the work gets gets kind of farmed out?
18:53 >> I think it what's changed is I spend a lot of time with
18:56 our digital technology partners.
18:58 So the CMO and the CDO partnering together,
19:03 I think that age is upon us
19:04 and I think you're seeing people merging those jobs together
19:07 and you're seeing CDOs become CMOs
19:08 and vice versa.
19:09 Um I do think also
19:11 that young young people coming up through the company are much more data savvy,
19:17 more data capable, more tech capable
19:20 and you know reverse mentoring all those things that's working to help us stay
19:24 on top of things.
19:26 So they have a big role in that regard.
19:27 So actually the reverse is true.
19:29 They're not being pushed out
19:31 or pushed out and they're actually coming up
19:33 and getting more connectivity. >> an opportunity to get face time with someone like
19:36 you.
19:37 And what's your advice for kind of early stage marketers?
19:40 There's So someone entering the profession right now,
19:43 like what what would your advice be about what they should focus on
19:46 and why they should be
19:47 so excited about the the kind of marketing profession in 2026
19:51 and beyond?
19:51 >> We're what are we looking for?
19:52 We're looking for people who are curious.
19:54 So how are you as a young marketer demonstrating and leveraging your curiosity?
20:01 Having the ambition to try things
20:04 and bring them forward in your cuz people want it.
20:06 I you know you talk to young young marketers like why would anyone want
20:09 to talk to me?
20:10 It's like what?
20:11 Because you're working on really important brands,
20:13 we're working on our our our precious assets
20:15 because you are seeing
20:17 and experiencing things both
20:18 as a consumer and
20:19 as a marketer that we are not.
20:20 So bring that into the conversation.
20:22 >> And in a sentence Rankin,
20:23 what's what's the thing you're working on right now that you're most excited about?
20:30 >> Measurement.
20:30 Honestly, working on how we measure the impact of we have a new media
20:35 mix,
20:36 we have new technology coming to play as we've talked about.
20:39 We are you know exploring, experimenting and piloting new things.
20:43 If we get measurement right,
20:44 then we can scale much with much more confidence and much more effectiveness.
20:50 >> Right, let's get measuring.
20:51 Rankin, thank you so much for joining us.
20:53 Thank you.
20:54 Appreciate it.
20:55 And thank you for joining us.
20:56 If you enjoyed this kind of content, please like and subscribe to our channel.
21:00 We also have lots more CMO interviews, analysis, news, scoops,
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