0:00 An average consumer is bombarded anywhere between 3,000
0:03 and 10,000 ads every single day.
0:07 The human brain cannot process that amount of data.
0:10 So, the brain has learned to tune out all these ads.
0:13 So, you're throwing ads at the consumers, but they're not even noticing it.
0:19 >> This is CMO Insider where you'll get candid takes from marketing power players.
0:24 My name's Lara O'Reilly.
0:25 I'm a senior correspondent at Business Insider
0:28 and I'm here with a marketing legend today.
0:30 Raja Rajamannar has run marketing at MasterCard for more than 12 years
0:35 as CMO and now he's switching into the senior fellow role.
0:38 Thank you so much for joining us.
0:40 >> Thank you very much for having me.
0:41 Much appreciated.
0:42 >> And I wanted to start with maybe a bit of an existential question
0:45 for you,
0:45 which is why does MasterCard do so much consumer marketing?
0:50 Often times when you get a new credit card or a bank account,
0:53 you don't get to choose who your payments provider is.
0:56 So, I'd love to know what that involves. >> good question.
0:59 It's in fact very existential, right?
1:02 For us as a brand,
1:03 the key thing is when you are building your brand as MasterCard,
1:07 you are a connector.
1:10 >> Mhm.
1:10 >> So, firstly, start with the places where consumers use their cards.
1:15 The merchant should feel confident
1:17 that when they see
1:18 that this is a MasterCard transaction,
1:20 that they will get paid for it.
1:22 So, it's basically trust and dependability and reliability.
1:26 That's from the merchant side.
1:27 Now, from the bank's side, I have to build my niche with the bank.
1:31 That A, that this is a very, very uh a secure, safe, efficient,
1:36 and effective network.
1:37 And they need to see value proposition beyond just pure functional elements.
1:44 But, we have to make sure
1:45 that we get enough into the consumer's mind
1:47 that when a bank gives them
1:48 that particular offering,
1:50 they're very happy.
1:51 So, we don't call ourselves as a direct to consumer uh brand.
1:54 We are a B2B2C brand.
1:56 Which is we are marketing
1:57 as a business to other businesses
1:59 which market to their consumers
2:00 and we try to fill this entire length of the chain.
2:04 >> Mhm.
2:04 And as I mentioned earlier, you were the CM CEO, I should have said,
2:08 at MasterCard for for around 12 years.
2:11 And I imagine you've you've kind of left the brand on on quite a
2:14 high,
2:14 but there must have been some challenges along the way.
2:17 And I wondered if you could talk through maybe like one one big challenge
2:20 you had and how you overcame it.
2:22 Does anything spring to mind?
2:23 >> At the beginning, I quickly discovered
2:26 that consumers associate MasterCard overwhelmingly
2:31 as a credit card company.
2:33 They say a credit card may make me spend money on things
2:36 that they don't need
2:37 and draw me into debt
2:38 or they they charge me very high interest rates.
2:41 And that makes automatically MasterCard brand as a negative brand.
2:46 >> Mhm.
2:46 And you're a payments company.
2:48 >> We are a We are a payments technology company.
2:50 We don't do payments ourselves.
2:52 So, I said this is amazing because we don't issue a single credit card,
2:55 but you ask a normal consumer on the street, they say, "Yeah,
2:58 MasterCard is a credit card company.
2:59 Credit card companies are not good."
3:01 So, my biggest challenge was how do I change that perception?
3:06 So, we started getting into areas where we were trying to earn the consumers'
3:12 trust.
3:12 For example, we launched with a program with Stand Up to Cancer where we
3:17 said that when we run some promotions
3:19 and you as a consumer spend at a restaurant using MasterCard,
3:25 we will pay a part of
3:27 that or we'll give a part of the profit
3:29 that we make to Stand Up to Cancer Foundation.
3:31 Started as a simple premise, but then it has profound.
3:34 We raised almost $75 million so far for Stand Up to Cancer.
3:39 And quite unbelievably, that group was able to get
3:43 as many as eight drugs through FDA approval from molecule discovery to all the
3:48 trials trials and eventually to FDA approval.
3:51 We did this about three years back or four years back,
3:54 I can't exactly remember,
3:55 but MasterCard was one of the top four most favorite brands.
4:00 So, from a category which is considered to be negative,
4:03 to coming to be one of the top four brands in the country is
4:06 a big deal for us.
4:07 >> And now a word from our sponsor LinkedIn ads to talk about how
4:10 to cut the ball spend from your marketing budget.
4:13 >> Marketing leaders today are under more pressure than ever to prove real impact
4:18 and concrete business outcomes.
4:20 I'm joined by Keith Browning,
4:22 director of global brand marketing at LinkedIn to learn more.
4:25 What makes LinkedIn uniquely suited to deliver measurable business outcomes, especially in B2B?
4:31 >> LinkedIn is the largest professional network in the world, so we're built for this.
4:35 We're built for B2B.
4:36 So, that means firstly being able to find the right people.
4:39 So, you know, you can target by job title or seniority, company, etc.
4:43 But, there's also the professional context component as well.
4:47 So, people come to LinkedIn to to learn, to evaluate potential solutions,
4:52 and certainly to make buying decisions as well.
4:55 >> And over your career,
4:56 you've been quite successful at kind of challenging some of the norms,
5:00 some of the kind of the marketing playbooks
5:02 or the marketing theory
5:03 that that people often lean upon in this in this industry.
5:06 I mean, one example is you've kind of famously declared advertising dead.
5:11 And you at one point you cut your advertising budget by 70%,
5:16 which is kind of unheard of.
5:18 Most most marketers are crying out for more budget each year, not less.
5:21 >> I always think of myself
5:23 as a consumer first before I consider myself a marketer.
5:27 As a consumer today, do I like advertisements?
5:31 I hate them.
5:33 >> Okay.
5:33 >> They are an interruption to my experience.
5:36 I'm watching a beautiful video of maybe some animals in the wild
5:41 or I'm looking at some Bollywood songs,
5:43 whatever it is, right?
5:45 Suddenly, in less than 5 minutes,
5:48 my experience is stopped
5:50 and I'm shown a stupid ad
5:52 that I don't care about.
5:55 And then I'm looking at when is the skip now button appears.
5:57 >> Do Do you have an ad blocker?
5:59 >> I have an ad blocker,
6:00 but ad blocker does not do the blocking of some of these streaming companies,
6:04 right?
6:04 So, and if I don't you the choice is either I pay money to
6:10 keep the ads out
6:11 or I suffer the ads.
6:12 What does it tell you?
6:14 >> Mhm.
6:14 >> That advertisements are disliked by consumers
6:16 so much so that these platforms are telling you,
6:19 "Hey, you know what?
6:20 If you don't want these ads, you pay me money."
6:22 That's like blackmail.
6:24 An average consumer is bombarded anywhere between 3,000
6:28 and 10,000 ads every single day.
6:32 The human brain cannot process that amount of data.
6:35 So, the brain has learned to tune out all these ads.
6:39 So, you're throwing ads at the consumers, but they're not even noticing it.
6:43 Why would advertising be the right model for us to communicate?
6:46 The need to communicate with the consumers doesn't go away.
6:50 But, the way we are communicating is not great.
6:53 And if I'm getting some results,
6:55 how do I know
6:56 that these results are happening
6:57 because of my campaign advertising campaign?
6:59 It could happen in spite of it.
7:01 It could happen because the gasoline prices have come down and consumer behavior So,
7:04 the attribution mechanisms are extremely weak. >> know the platforms are telling you
7:08 that the ads are working
7:09 and you can >> what they have to tell,
7:11 right?
7:12 To sell more.
7:13 But, for us as marketers,
7:14 we need to understand is this attribution model really reliable?
7:18 So, I cut down my advertising budget by 70%.
7:21 It is true till now.
7:24 It's not just done once.
7:25 We have taken permanently 70% of our advertising dollars out.
7:29 Nothing happened to the business that is negative.
7:32 >> But, you reinvested those dollars.
7:33 >> I reinvested those dollars into other areas like experience experiential marketing, for example,
7:40 or new platforms.
7:41 We started something called priceless.com.
7:43 We have invested in other areas and that actually has given us disproportionate returns.
7:49 Now, for example, as a result of which,
7:51 if you look at Brand Z in the past,
7:54 we used to be at number 87.
7:56 >> So, Brand Z is a kind of a measure of of how much
7:58 consumers like brands,
8:00 right?
8:00 >> rate the most valuable brands for >> brands, right.
8:03 >> Right.
8:03 MasterCard used to be the 87th most valuable brand.
8:06 Today, it is the 12th most valuable brand.
8:09 So, we have been outpacing our competition whose budgets were substantially higher than ours
8:14 big time.
8:15 And that trend continues to date.
8:17 >> And do you think that's maybe why marketing has a bit of a
8:19 trust problem in the C-suite?
8:21 >> Uh marketing has a trust problem for multiple reasons.
8:25 Now, I managed P&Ls and businesses before I became a CMO.
8:29 Now, in those roles, marketing used to report to me.
8:32 And I would ask them, "Okay, your budget this month $20 billion.
8:35 Tell me what exactly is it getting me for the business?"
8:38 Their answer is, "My awareness has gone up.
8:41 My net promoter score has gone up.
8:43 My brand predisposition has gone up.
8:46 Uh or my reach has increased."
8:47 >> Right.
8:48 None of those are on your balance sheet.
8:49 >> I don't care.
8:50 >> Yeah.
8:50 >> I want business results.
8:51 I say, "Tell me,
8:52 what is it doing to either the top line
8:53 or the bottom line in an incredible fashion?"
8:56 Don't give me some marketing mumbo jumbo.
8:58 I would get really impatient, right?
9:00 And they literally like deer caught in headlights.
9:04 That is a big problem.
9:05 Marketers talking their own jargon, their own language,
9:09 and looking at themselves as marketing specialists as opposed to business drivers.
9:14 A number of CEOs were interviewed in terms of their confidence in the CMOs
9:18 and in the marketing departments.
9:20 Shockingly, more than two-thirds of the CEOs have said they have zero confidence in
9:25 their CMOs and in their marketing departments to drive profitable growth.
9:30 Now, that's a disaster.
9:32 The CMO role in many companies has been downgraded to report to somebody who
9:36 reports to CEO.
9:37 >> So like the chief growth officer or the CRO >> Exactly.
9:41 Right.
9:41 Chief growth officer, chief revenue officer, chief customer officer.
9:45 Now, if you take away customers, revenue, and growth out of marketing,
9:49 what is left behind?
9:51 >> Right.
9:51 >> Right.
9:51 It's It's really fluff.
9:53 So, the issue is that marketers did not market themselves well.
9:56 They did not learn themselves the new things that are happening.
10:00 And now with AI coming in,
10:02 it could be even more devastating if these people don't quickly educate themselves,
10:06 come on top.
10:07 So, some technologists will now be running through some bunch of agents the entire
10:12 marketing department,
10:13 which is not how it has to be.
10:15 >> So, AI threatens those marketers, I guess, for myriad reasons, right?
10:18 One because the the thing that used to be hard to spin up,
10:21 you can now make a a thousand creatives in in two seconds on Meta
10:25 or whatever.
10:26 Um and also with with AI,
10:28 I imagine that that means the CFO
10:30 and the CEO can very quickly kind of unpick these fluffy marketing metrics
10:35 that they're being thrown at them.
10:37 So, what's a marketer to do, I guess?
10:39 >> So, there are two things.
10:40 On the one hand, AI is probably the single biggest threat.
10:44 But it is also the single biggest opportunity for marketing to seize
10:49 and regain control of the function properly.
10:51 Now, AI, yes, you are right,
10:53 you can give a prompt and it'll create 10 creatives, 20 creatives,
10:57 100 creatives in a matter of a few minutes.
10:59 You might be a gigantic Unilever, and I might be a tiny corner shop.
11:04 Now, both of us give the prompts, and we get the output.
11:06 Your output looks exactly like my output.
11:08 So, what happens is the small companies are able to effectively now compete against
11:13 the large companies.
11:15 Before you realize, it becomes a sea of sameness.
11:18 Everyone's output looks exactly the same.
11:20 And because marketers are also >> you see that now already?
11:23 Do you see it
11:24 when you scroll through your feeds
11:25 or >> You won't believe I was doing this exercise just about a week
11:28 back.
11:28 I was saying, how many campaigns are using iceberg uh as a mnemonic?
11:38 >> Right.
11:38 >> It was more than 100.
11:40 Suppose AI gave you a particular campaign which shows iceberg.
11:45 You accepted it, you ran with it.
11:48 >> Mhm.
11:48 >> Now when I come in and say I want a thing,
11:50 it'll first refer to its training.
11:53 It has learned something from you saying that iceberg works.
11:56 It gives me iceberg.
11:57 I don't know that you have run the same thing.
11:59 I say, "Yeah, this looks good."
12:00 Accepted.
12:01 Before you know, hundreds of people are using this stupid iceberg.
12:04 >> And then reinforcing it because hundreds of people are using it. >> it.
12:06 The system is learning.
12:08 Say, "Then all right.
12:08 So if this person asks for something like this
12:10 that a lot of it is below the surface,
12:12 let me give you iceberg."
12:14 Before you know, everyone is running with iceberg campaigns, which is ridiculous, right?
12:18 Now that is the biggest opportunity for marketers where
12:22 when there is that sea of sameness,
12:24 original creativity matters.
12:26 Innovation and creativity are going to be the biggest differentiators in this age of
12:31 AI.
12:32 Because that at the end of three days is human-to-human connection
12:36 that sells your products
12:37 and brands.
12:38 It is not just efficient and effective communication by itself.
12:41 The communication is effective
12:42 because it is connecting behind the scenes
12:45 or below the surface.
12:46 >> And now a word from our sponsor LinkedIn ads to talk about how
12:49 to cut the bull spend from your marketing budget.
12:52 >> LinkedIn's cut the bull spend campaign urges marketers to rethink how they evaluate
12:56 performance and where their budgets actually drive impact.
13:00 I'm here with Keith Browning,
13:02 director of global brand marketing at LinkedIn to learn more.
13:05 How do you define bull spend in practical terms?
13:08 >> So I'd say bull spend is really wasted advertising spend.
13:12 It's an investment that leads to a great-looking dashboard.
13:15 So the numbers look good, the arrows are going in the right direction,
13:18 but really it's not actually doing anything to to drive the business forward,
13:21 so it doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
13:23 >> How does LinkedIn help marketers reduce waste and increase efficiency in real terms.
13:29 >> On LinkedIn, you don't have to pay for attention from people who, you know,
13:32 are never going to buy from you.
13:33 But mass reach works great if you're selling breakfast cereal,
13:37 not so much if you're selling, you know, CRMs.
13:39 That's really where LinkedIn is different.
13:41 >> And And do you think that's kind of why we're seeing more of
13:43 a rise of of kind of two trends in in marketing?
13:46 One being influencer marketing and kind of co-creation with creators,
13:50 and the other being kind of live events
13:53 and experiential in this kind of sea of sameness.
13:55 We all want to be >> That's so right.
13:57 That's so true.
13:57 >> That's so true.
13:58 So, the rise of influencer marketing is basically influencer is working
14:02 as a filter to me
14:05 as to what I should even bother
14:07 or care to watch.
14:09 So, you're utilizing that mechanism smartly.
14:11 So, influencer marketing, I think it'll continue for some good time.
14:14 Till such time, probably, that everyone becomes an influencer.
14:19 And everyone starts creating using AI, which is not too far down the line.
14:23 The other part of it is experiences.
14:25 Experiential marketing gives you the opportunity to immerse the consumers
14:30 and tap into all their senses.
14:32 I call it multi-sensory marketing.
14:33 Tap into all their senses.
14:35 Once you give that experience to the consumer,
14:37 the consumer will talk about it and becomes automatically an ambassador of your brand.
14:43 And if you invest your money in amplifying the message of
14:46 that particular ambassador to reach more
14:48 and more people of
14:49 that individual only,
14:51 you'll get a tremendous reach.
14:52 And this was a big hypothesis we started with,
14:55 but then it got proved proven extremely well.
14:58 So much so that now a massive amount of our budget is behind experiences.
15:02 And >> Right.
15:02 So, you even have like restaurants, you have >> We have restaurants.
15:06 >> You have live music.
15:07 >> There are 10 passion areas.
15:08 For example, you have got sports.
15:10 So, sports is one huge ocean.
15:13 Likewise, we went into music.
15:14 We went into culinary, tourism, shopping.
15:17 Each one of these areas we curate experiences.
15:20 And that has done a lot more for our brand than any campaign has
15:25 ever done for us.
15:26 >> What's What's an example of a new skill
15:28 that maybe you've only had to learn relatively recently
15:32 that now is kind of table stakes for marketers in this era?
15:36 >> I wrote this book called Quantum Marketing 5 years back.
15:39 And in that I outlined
15:40 that there are 24 technologies
15:42 which are coming at us.
15:43 AI is a huge one.
15:45 But augmented reality is coming.
15:47 Multiverses are coming.
15:49 Even though they're going through their winter right now, they will come right back.
15:53 Blockchains and cryptocurrencies are going to play a significant role.
15:57 3D printing and so on.
15:58 So, each one of these you need to really understand them not
16:02 as a technologist,
16:03 but you should understand it enough to see the possibilities.
16:07 The rate of change which is happening is unbelievable.
16:11 So, for example, AI every week there is something new
16:15 and something big that's happening.
16:16 >> That's another way to be overwhelmed, right?
16:18 If you're going to to a event like Cannes this year
16:21 and you're being pitched a generative this
16:22 and AI-powered this,
16:24 how do you figure out what's real?
16:26 >> So, I take the help of AI.
16:29 >> Okay.
16:29 >> So, I go to AI and say, "Look, I'm being overwhelmed."
16:32 It will do the filtering.
16:34 So, you don't have to be overwhelmed because your point is so valid, Laura.
16:37 Every single day there are so many emails which are coming.
16:40 Everyone is sending.
16:41 The vendors are sending.
16:42 And then there are news articles.
16:44 And even if you subscribe to the so-called experts in the space,
16:48 they have got tons of material under
16:50 which there are links
16:51 that you keep going.
16:52 It's a rabbit hole after rabbit hole after rabbit hole.
16:54 When do you do your real work?
16:56 I use Notebook LM.
16:58 Uh I like reading a lot,
17:00 but I just don't have the bandwidth to read everything.
17:03 So, I give tonight whatever the material I want to be reviewed.
17:07 And tomorrow morning I switch on the podcast by Notebook LM.
17:12 So, there are two people who are talking very naturally
17:14 and they tell me everything I need to know.
17:15 It's stuff like that.
17:16 Or if there is a book, new book which has come.
17:19 I'll say, "Hey, is there anything interesting in this book
17:21 that I need to understand?"
17:22 >> Well, I hope our listeners don't get any ideas
17:24 when they listen to this from start to finish.
17:26 No summaries allowed.
17:27 >> I hope so.
17:29 >> >> Um just while we still have you,
17:31 um I wanted to to leave our listeners with um a little bit of
17:35 advice,
17:36 particularly people who are just starting out in their marketing careers.
17:39 Also, people who might be thinking maybe marketing isn't for me.
17:43 I know that there are some stats out there
17:45 that that marketing isn't the most popular degree course out there right now.
17:48 >> Exactly.
17:49 That's true.
17:49 >> Why is Why is there a good reason to go into marketing in 2026?
17:53 >> So, I think if you are scared of AI,
17:57 you should be very scared if you're in other functions than marketing.
18:01 Because they functions like finance, IT, uh even human resources,
18:07 a lot of functions like payroll and all these things, they are totally automatable.
18:12 And AI can do a fantastic job.
18:15 When AI creates this sea of sameness for all companies,
18:19 how do companies differentiate themselves and succeed in the marketplace?
18:23 Marketing is going to help them.
18:25 So, this is the golden era
18:27 that we are about to enter
18:29 as far as marketing is concerned,
18:30 number one.
18:31 And if you want to see the world, marketing is by far the best.
18:35 >> Mhm.
18:35 >> And lastly, I would say
18:36 that there's always a joy
18:38 when you see your thoughts taking shape in front of you.
18:43 Marketers do it day in and day out.
18:45 They're thinking up of a campaign, they release the campaign,
18:47 and they're looking at the impact and how consumers are actually reacting to it.
18:51 And it is absolute adrenaline.
18:54 If you're into video games and you're competitively, you know, playing against them,
18:58 marketing is a life video game.
19:00 Literally, and you're playing with uh brutally aggressive competitors and with constraints,
19:05 with all kinds of hurdles thrown in your way.
19:07 It's such a fun space, and it's a real one.
19:11 No, basically, it's not just some abstract things that you're putting together.
19:14 Uh I think marketing is as human as it can get.
19:18 >> Mhm.
19:18 You don't get that in payroll.
19:20 >> No.
19:20 >> Thank you so much for joining us on the CMO Insider podcast.
19:23 >> Thank you again, Laura, for having me.
19:25 Much appreciated.
19:25 Thank you.
19:26 >> And thank you for joining us.
19:28 If you enjoyed this conversation, please do like and subscribe.
19:31 And if you want to read more marketing content, news, scoops, analysis,
19:35 you can go to businessinsider.com.
